DBB 28C. Co-prosperity sphere of happiness: Jorge (J) vs Revthought (A)

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I am still in the process of bringing LBAs and air support to this region. which is an underdeveloped wasteland except for a few bases

A turn ago 25th Air HQ arrived to Suva, this is good news because I can now have torpedo carrying Betties here. Before this, the only air support, other than a few float planes, was only what KB could provide, and this is "expensive" support in terms of fuel consumption, unbelievable expensive, 6 full (big) tanker loads had been spent in capturing Suva/ PagoPago and that just let me fill the tanks, Suva is still at zero fuel. So I want to move the KB out of here ASAP, it will most likely leave escorting redeploying Pago Pago divisions. KB will likely be based somewhere between Rabaul, Kwajalein and Suva; maybe Tulagi or Tabiteau? I have started building all these outlying bases; each has some sort of construction battalion (playing DBB-C, so really not a lot in the building department)

There are very few other L2 bases with air support present: Noumea, Baker, maybe a couple more. So really not in a position to stop a convoy unless I send the navy. That said, he has been smart in not sending fat convoys within Japanese controlled waters.

I don't think I can stop USA to Australia supply route, at most I am forcing him to go south, to follow a southern leg: USA-NZ-Australia
I will position submarines to make it as painful as possible, and I will build a strong LBA/ Patrol/ FP system of naval search. I might even send raiders from time to time, but stopping the supply route is impossible, too much fuel!

[AlessandroD]

Do you still have your raider ships?

Anyhow if I was the Allied I would stop any big convoy here, too risky.

Now, India? [:D]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

The "expansion" cost me 5 AMCs and 12 xAPs

I still have 6 AMCs left, but I doubt I will risk them, as they are navalized "APs" and can be more helpful on future, limited invasions and/ or as convoy escorts that are capable of carrying cargo (troops, resource, supply).
Still, I can use destroyers and light cruisers to raid enemy convoy lanes, of course not too far away from Japanese seas.

More important, I used amphibious capable ships sparingly and therefore I have:
2 LSDs + 4 APDs: capable of carrying ~ one regiment
15 Yusen A/N each capable of carrying between 1,350 and 1,600 troops each. This plus 6 AMCs is roughly equivalen to ~ 2 divisions.

I will keep advancing in India, land only, and not too deep, just enough to keep him concerned and out of range of Magwe

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Picture worth 1,000 words.
KB found a small TF of raider; I bet he was heading to Suva or Pago Pago

His fire was very effective against destroyers; I ended up with 4 seriously damaged, definitively at risk considering how far away are they from the closest shipyard. Capital ships received a couple hits, all bounced

[AlessandroD]

Ouch...is it an Omen? [:D]

[Bif1961]

If those two British vessels caused all that damage then they lived heroically and died the same way. Kinda reminds me of the USS Houston's and HMAS Perth's ride into glory.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I hope this is not an omen, I can tell they did quite a lot of damage, pound-for-pound they over exceed any expectation. Moreover they both survived, if under heavy damage

Performance of the 2 Kongos was abysmal I only saw one 36cm hit, and it was on the upper works.

At the end of the day:
- Both allied ships survived, on fire, heavy damage
- 4 Japanese cruisers heavily damaged:
Umikaze: sys(23), flood(9/1), engine(7/1), fire(0)
Kagero: sys(42), flood(11/4), engine(24/1), fire(0)
Kuroshio: sys(52), flood(32/1), engine(49/1), fire(15)
Kawakaze: sys(32), flood(16/5), engine(23/0), fire(0)
No damage for carriers or battleships

These are the combat reports:

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Sub attack near Akyab at 54,44

Japanese Ships
CVE Hosho
CL Kitakami
DD Asagiri
DD Isonami
DD Samidare

Allied Ships
SS Haddock, hits 1

SS Haddock launches 4 torpedoes at CVE Hosho
Haddock bottoming out ....
DD Asagiri fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Isonami attacking submerged sub ....
DD Samidare attacking submerged sub ....
DD Samidare is out of ASW ammo
DD Isonami attacking submerged sub ....
DD Isonami is out of ASW ammo
DD Isonami is out of ASW ammo
DD Isonami is out of ASW ammo
DD Isonami is out of ASW ammo
DD Samidare fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Isonami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Isonami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Isonami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Isonami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Isonami fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

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Day Time Surface Combat, near Nadi at 125,161, Range 20,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Shokaku
CV Akagi
CS Chiyoda
BB Hiei, Shell hits 2
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
DD Kagero
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Shiranui
DD Yudachi
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze

Allied Ships
CL Capetown, Shell hits 4
DD Banckert, Shell hits 1

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards
DD Banckert engages CV Akagi at 20,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CL Capetown at 15,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 15,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Suzukaze at 15,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Kagero at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 14,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Banckert at 14,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Banckert at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 12,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 12,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Umikaze at 12,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Kawakaze at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 9,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Banckert at 9,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 13,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Shokaku at 13,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CL Capetown at 13,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Banckert at 13,000 yards
DD Yamakaze engages DD Banckert at 13,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Shiranui at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Suzukaze at 16,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Umikaze at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 16,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Banckert at 16,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Banckert at 16,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Kagero at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu ,
CV Kaga , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
BB Kirishima engages DD Banckert at 18,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CL Capetown at 18,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Banckert at 18,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Yamakaze at 18,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Banckert at 18,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 18,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Kagero at 18,000 yards
Range increases to 22,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu ,
CV Kaga , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
BB Kirishima engages CL Capetown at 22,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Shiranui at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
Range increases to 29,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku screened from combat
- escorted by DD Umikaze
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 29,000 yards
Task forces break off...


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Anatom at 124,161, Range 23,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Shell hits 1
CV Hiryu
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 1
CV Akagi
CS Chiyoda
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
DD Kagero, Shell hits 1
DD Kuroshio, heavy fires
DD Shiranui
DD Yudachi
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze, on fire
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze

Allied Ships
CL Capetown, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Banckert, Shell hits 2

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 23,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
CV Akagi screened from combat
- escorted by DD Suzukaze
Range closes to 18,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Hiryu at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Shokaku at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Suzukaze at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Kawakaze at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Hiryu at 10,000 yards
DD Banckert engages CV Shokaku at 10,000 yards
CL Capetown engages BB Kirishima at 10,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Banckert at 10,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Banckert at 10,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Banckert at 10,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Banckert at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Suzukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Suzukaze at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu ,
CV Kaga screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kawakaze , DD Yudachi
DD Banckert engages CV Kaga at 13,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Suzukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Yamakaze at 13,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Banckert at 13,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 13,000 yards
DD Kagero engages DD Banckert at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shiranui
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CS Chiyoda at 16,000 yards
DD Kagero engages DD Banckert at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 20,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu screened from combat
- escorted by DD Suzukaze , DD Yamakaze
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 20,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Capetown at 20,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Banckert at 20,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
CV Akagi screened from combat
- escorted by DD Yudachi
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 25,000 yards
Range increases to 29,000 yards
CV Akagi screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kawakaze
Task forces break off...


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Anatom at 123,161, Range 20,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 1
CV Akagi
CS Chiyoda
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
DD Kagero, on fire
DD Kuroshio, heavy fires
DD Shiranui
DD Yudachi
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze, on fire
DD Umikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Suzukaze

Allied Ships
CL Capetown, Shell hits 9, on fire
DD Banckert, Shell hits 3, on fire

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Shokaku at 20,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Kaga at 20,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Umikaze at 20,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Hiryu at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CS Chiyoda at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Umikaze at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Kawakaze at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Shokaku at 14,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Capetown at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Suzukaze at 14,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Shiranui at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 10,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Umikaze at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CV Akagi at 9,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Banckert at 9,000 yards
DD Banckert engages CV Hiryu at 9,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Banckert at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kawakaze , DD Yudachi
CL Capetown engages DD Umikaze at 12,000 yards
DD Banckert engages CV Kaga at 12,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Banckert at 12,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Banckert at 12,000 yards
DD Banckert engages DD Kagero at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Shokaku , CV Hiryu ,
CV Kaga , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kawakaze , DD Yudachi , DD Shiranui
BB Kirishima engages CL Capetown at 15,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD Banckert at 15,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Suzukaze at 15,000 yards
DD Yamakaze engages DD Banckert at 15,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Banckert at 15,000 yards
DD Kagero engages DD Banckert at 15,000 yards
Pringle D. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 17,000 yards
CL Capetown engages DD Kagero at 17,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Capetown at 17,000 yards
Task forces break off...


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Anatom at 123,162

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 36
B5N2 Kate x 25
D3A1 Val x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Capetown, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Banckert, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
25 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CL Capetown
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Banckert

[AlessandroD]

Jorge, no answer by Fremen (maybe he changed his email address), therefore if you are still interested I can give you the files.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

sure, thanks!
how big is it, would you say email capable?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

another F-ing oiler lost !!!!

This one was on a 5 PB + 3 oiler convoy to Suva. I didn't have a HR again no fuel on xAKs, but I still tried much as I could, to use only tankers to carry fuel... not anymore, I would simply run out of tankers at this pace, so I will inform my opponent

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Sub attack near Yasawa Islands at 131,157

Japanese Ships
AO Nippon Maru, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires
PB Tonon Maru
PB Aso Maru #7
AO Toho Maru
AO Shinkoku Maru
PB Seikyo Maru
PB Hokutai Maru
PB Sozan Maru

Allied Ships
SS S-45

SS S-45 launches 4 torpedoes at AO Nippon Maru
S-45 diving deep ....
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Hokutai Maru fails to find sub and abandons search
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Seikyo Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

[AlessandroD]

How many tankers lost so far? 14?
Anyhow I like your self-imposed HR.

Message sent [:)]

[JocMeister]

Why on earth would you have a HR against shipping fuel in xAKs? You pay a hefty penalty as the capacity is halved if you do. There is no foul play in doing so?

[Yaab]

Because xAKs hauled only avgas(supply) in RL.

Actually, when you haul fuel in xAKs you can unload them faster than a dedicated tanker. Just dump naval support in a port and it will help unload the drummed fuel from xAKs. You cannot do the same with TK/YOs, you have to develop the port then.

I wish the devs got rid of this feature altogether.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Because xAKs hauled only avgas(supply) in RL.

Actually, when you haul fuel in xAKs you can unload them faster than a dedicated tanker. Just dump naval support in a port and it will help unload the drummed fuel from xAKs. You cannot do the same with TK/YOs, you have to develop the port then.

I wish the devs got rid of this feature altogether.

Well, I still don´t think it warrants a HR. TBH this is the first time I ever heard anyone using a HR for it. Losing half the capacity is a big blow. Especially for Japan I would think this way of hauling fuel would be tremendously inefficient and to be avoided unless its absolutely necessary anyway?

[Yaab]

When you use this HR it is like a paradigm shift in strategy. TK/YOs become tremendously important an each of them warrant a strong escort to deflect submarines, but good escorts are really scare at start.

I use this HR in my game against the AI. Now much of my naval planning revolves around TK/YOs. I like historical play and slower tempo of operations this HR introduces.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Because xAKs hauled only avgas(supply) in RL.

Actually, when you haul fuel in xAKs you can unload them faster than a dedicated tanker. Just dump naval support in a port and it will help unload the drummed fuel from xAKs. You cannot do the same with TK/YOs, you have to develop the port then.

I wish the devs got rid of this feature altogether.

Well, I still don´t think it warrants a HR. TBH this is the first time I ever heard anyone using a HR for it. Losing half the capacity is a big blow. Especially for Japan I would think this way of hauling fuel would be tremendously inefficient and to be avoided unless its absolutely necessary anyway?

+1

I never haul fuel in xAK's, as you say, the cost to move it via xAK is too much of the fuel load you are moving. IJ's merchant fleet is already so inefficient, 50% penalty ... yikes.

Now if someone wants to play with this HR in their own mod ... hey, whatever floats their boat.

IRL, did the IJ ever ship bunker fuel via xAK? I have no idea and I doubt that records exist any more to answer the question. Could they have? Absolutely. Standard 55 gal drums or temporary tanks could have been used (easily) and the 50% space loss is used to represent this. So, the real issue is to say they couldn't have done it. That's not accurate. The Dev's have this correct and they stated this way back for the support of the rule.

Now, what's not well modeled and WAS done routinely was the fuel tanks on all DEI shipments to IJ were topped up and then drained to minimums at the destination. This isn't that easy to do with the current game mechanics. You can do it, but it takes a fair amount of practice and patience.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

It was never a firm HR; more like an ideal. in the 1st page of this AAR you can see how it was defined

I don't think it is inefficient to do, assuming of course "return leg" only, in other words, there are plenty of xAKs moving supply to the SRA, I would never left them come back to HI empty. Choices for return cargo are resources (what I used to carry exclusively) or fuel, which I will start taking.

For places without oil or with small ports (Pacific), I guess I will need to move the fleet out of Suva.. too risky and keep even stronger convoys anytime the oilers are coming

Losses:
Fast Oilers: 2 Type TL-N (11,500 capacity, 15 knots cruise speed), both to submarines
Slow Oilers: 2 Shiretokos (8,000 capacity, 10 cruise speed), both to raiders attacking Rabaul
Medium Tanker: 1 Manzyu TM (7,950 capacity, 10 cruise speed), raider near Miri
Small Tankes: 12 Type-1 TS (1,250 capacity, 10 cruise speed), 7 to submarines, 3 on Rabaul raid, 1 on Miri's raid, 1 due to mines


Under repair:
AO Tsurumi (Shiretoko class): 16 days to go back online, repairing a torpedo hit
TK Tonan Maru 2 (Tonan M class): 68 days to back online, repairing a torpedo hit

To say I am unhappy of this losses would be an understatement.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

It was never a firm HR; more like an ideal. in the 1st page of this AAR you can see how it was defined

I don't think it is inefficient to do, assuming of course "return leg" only, in other words, there are plenty of xAKs moving supply to the SRA, I would never left them come back to HI empty. Choices for return cargo are resources (what I used to carry exclusively) or fuel, which I will start taking.

For places without oil or with small ports (Pacific), I guess I will need to move the fleet out of Suva.. too risky and keep even stronger convoys anytime the oilers are coming

Losses:
Fast Oilers: 2 Type TL-N (11,500 capacity, 15 knots cruise speed), both to submarines
Slow Oilers: 2 Shiretokos (8,000 capacity, 10 cruise speed), both to raiders attacking Rabaul
Medium Tanker: 1 Manzyu TM (7,950 capacity, 10 cruise speed), raider near Miri
Small Tankes: 12 Type-1 TS (1,250 capacity, 10 cruise speed), 7 to submarines, 3 on Rabaul raid, 1 on Miri's raid, 1 due to mines


Under repair:
AO Tsurumi (Shiretoko class): 16 days to go back online, repairing a torpedo hit
TK Tonan Maru 2 (Tonan M class): 68 days to back online, repairing a torpedo hit

To say I am unhappy of this losses would be an understatement.

You won´t like 43-45... [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

It was never a firm HR; more like an ideal. in the 1st page of this AAR you can see how it was defined

I don't think it is inefficient to do, assuming of course "return leg" only, in other words, there are plenty of xAKs moving supply to the SRA, I would never left them come back to HI empty. Choices for return cargo are resources (what I used to carry exclusively) or fuel, which I will start taking.

For places without oil or with small ports (Pacific), I guess I will need to move the fleet out of Suva.. too risky and keep even stronger convoys anytime the oilers are coming

Losses:
Fast Oilers: 2 Type TL-N (11,500 capacity, 15 knots cruise speed), both to submarines
Slow Oilers: 2 Shiretokos (8,000 capacity, 10 cruise speed), both to raiders attacking Rabaul
Medium Tanker: 1 Manzyu TM (7,950 capacity, 10 cruise speed), raider near Miri
Small Tankes: 12 Type-1 TS (1,250 capacity, 10 cruise speed), 7 to submarines, 3 on Rabaul raid, 1 on Miri's raid, 1 due to mines


Under repair:
AO Tsurumi (Shiretoko class): 16 days to go back online, repairing a torpedo hit
TK Tonan Maru 2 (Tonan M class): 68 days to back online, repairing a torpedo hit

To say I am unhappy of this losses would be an understatement.

Your game. Just pointing out that the design is correct. Don't want to high jack your game thread.

With your rule, I would suggest that you put AV/CVE in all TK convoys with plenty of E's ... I find that Jakes on NavSearch or ASW really make the difference ...

[Yaab]

Jorge_Stanbury, maybe it is time to redefine the HR? In RL fuel in cargo method was used in emergencies to move very small quantities of fuel. Thus, maybe you could do the same but limit yourself to using your smallest xAKLs?

Here is a discussion on this topic.
tm.asp?m=3742111&mpage=1&key=&#3746334