DBB 28C. Co-prosperity sphere of happiness: Jorge (J) vs Revthought (A)

[PaxMondo]

Not arguing anything Symon said, because he is right, but ...

When/If the IJ runs outta tankers, I promise you in a war building small tanks to haul bunker fuel would happen. Lousy efficiency, like 50% of the total hold. hold it, that's what they did in game. Would they likley start with xAKL's? Yeah, likely. Why? Easiest to do.

Not sure why this is such a big deal. Even Symon said so. Its minor. Its tiny. Whatever you want to do is fine. But if you ever limit yourself to moving fuel when any kind of AK exists, just know you crossed over to the wrong side of realism. In war, people don't just bend rules, they totally ignore them. Really. [;)]

[jwolf]

FWIW IMHO (maybe I can write the whole post in acronyms [8D]) this kind of handicap only makes sense in a game vs. the AI or in a game matching an experienced player against a beginner. In war, people will exploit all resources to their extreme limit.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Not arguing anything Symon said, because he is right, but ...

When/If the IJ runs outta tankers, I promise you in a war building small tanks to haul bunker fuel would happen. Lousy efficiency, like 50% of the total hold. hold it, that's what they did in game. Would they likley start with xAKL's? Yeah, likely. Why? Easiest to do.

Not sure why this is such a big deal. Even Symon said so. Its minor. Its tiny. Whatever you want to do is fine. But if you ever limit yourself to moving fuel when any kind of AK exists, just know you crossed over to the wrong side of realism. In war, people don't just bend rules, they totally ignore them. Really. [;)]

When I started playing the GC, I was under the impresion that in RL hauling fuel in xAK was commonplace. Otherwise, the devs wouldn't have put the option in the first place. All this time I was thinking why US Navy had experienced tanker or fuel shortage during the war - I was hauling tons of fuel everywhere with no problem. It was only after I stumbled on Symon's post did I change my views.

Did the Japs adapt their xAKs in late-war to haul fuel as cargo?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but Jorge_Stanbury is one of the first to explore the uncharted territory of this HR, and his struggle is interesting to watch.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

hey no worries, this is precisely the kind of discussions I want in my AAR; after all this is quite a standard game and we all know more or less how the war starts and ends

I will think a bit more about it; I got "green light" from my opponent, but I will wait to see the impact of June 42 conversions (Standard C tanker becomes available). I am not too worried, yet, as the main losses had been in the very irrelevant/ small type-1 TS

[IdahoNYer]

Jorge - getting back to what to do with your Pago Pago victors.....

Have you considered expanding your flanks in Australia? It looks like your center of gravity is Darwin of course. To prolong the Allied struggle to remove you from Northern Aus, think about pushing your right flank down to taking Exmouth and Carnavon - both would likely require seaborne assault to push you out - and if held can deny the Allies access to Port Hedland and then Broome. On your left flank, NE AUS should still be relatively undefended - taking Cooktown, Portland Roads and Coen will safeguard Moresby, Horn Island and grant you safe (at least safer) passage through the Torrez Strait well into late '42.

Advantages here also include its a short transit time from Pago, and will deny/delay the Allies potential thrusts into New Guinea/Rabaul and of course the DEI.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I didn't think about it, really. Do you think they will be a significant advantage?

On the NW:
I can easily grab Exmouth and Carnarvon, the former is a dot base and I bet it is empty, the later might be a bit more challenging, thus I will need 100% preparation, but more worrisome is the fact there is a road linking it to Geraldton, which will easily become a source of "relatively infinite" supply for an Australian land offensive not to mention it is a 2(7) airbase. By the time of the offensive it will become 9(7) and only 8 hexes from Carnarvon.. unless I build it significantly, actually even if I build it significantly, it will still be doomed. Wouldn't it be better to focus on places closer to Darwin? like Broome/ Derby?

On the NE:
I am even more worried here. Suva and Pago/Pago was a relatively easy grab (only 1 US division and a few brigades there) which by simple process of elimination he has to be strong in NE Australia. Portland Roads and Coen can be easily captured, but what happens after? He is certainly strong on Cairns, Charter Towers and Townsville. I will need to build quite a lot to keep the pace of the air war... won't it be less costly to close the strait by reinforcing places like Merauke, Terapo or Gove?

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't think about it, really. Do you think they will be a significant advantage?


On the NW:
I can easily grab Exmouth and Carnarvon, the former is a dot base and I bet it is empty, the later might be a bit more challenging, thus I will need 100% preparation, but more worrisome is the fact there is a road linking it to Geraldton, which will easily become a source of "relatively infinite" supply for an Australian land offensive not to mention it is a 2(7) airbase. By the time of the offensive it will become 9(7) and only 8 hexes from Carnarvon.. unless I build it significantly, actually even if I build it significantly, it will still be doomed. Wouldn't it be better to focus on places closer to Darwin? like Broome/ Derby?

On the NE:
I am even more worried here. Suva and Pago/Pago was a relatively easy grab (only 1 US division and a few brigades there) which by simple process of elimination he has to be strong in NE Australia. Portland Roads and Coen can be easily captured, but what happens after? He is certainly strong on Cairns, Charter Towers and Townsville. I will need to build quite a lot to keep the pace of the air war... won't it be less costly to close the strait by reinforcing places like Merauke, Terapo or Gove?

Pretty much an observation from what I'm experiencing in my game with L_S_T....

From an Allied perspective, I'd love to retain those bases. It will greatly facilitate my ability to strike back in mid '42. In the NW (do you hold Port Hedland already?), Port Hedland is the first real prize, (L_S_T also thought so, and decisively defeated my attempt to hold it early on) - as it has a good potential AF to strike toward Broome. If I lose Port Hedland, I'm going to try and retain Exmouth and build it up - can become a good sub base if nothing else, but also will be a springboard for any operation toward Port Hedland/Broome. From the IJA perspective, I think the goal for Exmouth and even Carnavon would be denial - and pull out before the pressure mounts. But a single SNLF will deny either base from the Allies for a long while.

In the NE, same reasoning. As the Allies, I love to build up Portland Roads if I'm able. Fastest way to put P-38s over New Guinea. Once P-38s are sweeping Moresby, IJN shipping ability south of New Guinea pretty much ceases - or can become very, very costly. Coen manages to draw enough supply from Cooktown overland, and can also be built up to a substantial Allied airbase. So again, denying the Allied build up timeline here would be the goal. Cooktown is weakly defended early on, and unless you've seen a lot of shipping reinforcing it, likely is still held by a weak Militia Bde. Taking Cooktown will force the Allies to commit a heavy ground force, likely in a slow overland campaign - deny and then pull north. Cooktown's development is then starting in late '42 vs. now.

The Allies will probably try to close the shoulders on the IJA's Darwin redoubt - overland from Alice Springs just doesn't get enough supply north. So, delaying the adavance on the shoulders could extend the conflict.

[PaxMondo]

Strong in OZ is all relative. OZ is not self sufficient in supply. Units just sitting, they are usually losing a bit of supply every day. So,they need supply and/or supply&fuel shipped in to have enough supply for any type of fighting. That's how Oz gets cracked. It isn't about the units on the ground there, its about can they get supply in for them to be effective. Pago Pago is a big block for supply coming from USA. If you get Darwin and Perth, you have the opportunity to effectively blockade OZ, and once that is done you can take it.

Most allied players will react to that. [;)]

I've often thought it is one of the best gambits to get the allies to come out to play in '42 when you actually have a good chance to take them down hard. If you go after OZ, I like to take Darwin, Perth and then Tasmania (assuming Fiji and surrounding areas are taken). Oz is then isolated, and I have LBA to back up the KB against the allied CV's. OR I totally take OZ with all of those VP's ...
Of course, there is nothing easy about being able to do this ... needs a lot of ID's ....

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Thank you very much for the advice, I think it makes a lot of sense but it is way too ambitious for my game [;)][:D] without even mentioning we decided to ignore auto victory, we are playing until the end or until one of us concede.

I don't think I can pull it successfully now, it is already April 42 and any good offensive needs to be planned in advance. As you said not easy and need quite a lot of IDs, which I don't have available in the numbers needed (most are now in East Bengal), not to mention the supplies and more important, the fuel needed for the KB to be kept "on patrol" for quite a long time.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Once again, my opponent proves himself super aggressive:

he raided Pago Pago, which I was actually expecting, to the point that I only started loading troops a turn ago; I was unlucky this was just the turn he arrived:
results were not as bad as you can see:
- 2 Momi (1 DD, 1 APD) and one loaded xAK-T sunk (800 troops lost)
- DD Hughes sunk, DD Mustin heavy fires, heavy damaged... I would say doomed
- BB Mississippi heavy fires, CA Chester on fire... at risk, but I doubt they will sink, unless KB (which is at Suva) catch them
- CAs Mogami and Mikuma in surprising good shape.. still they are damaged and will need to withdraw

This kind of reinforces the need to go on the defensive, the more I expand, the easiest is for him to push on vulnerable spots, and although I had been good at anticipating where he will push, and in almost all raids, he has ended with heavy losses.. mine had been potentially more crippling in the long run. His aim, it seems, is to end 1942 without anything afloat, as long as he hurts the Japanese navy somehow

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Pago Pago at 148,161, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
APD Tade, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
xAK Sinno Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
CA Chester
DD Hughes
DD Mustin

Japanese ground losses:
762 casualties reported
Squads: 42 destroyed, 26 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 24 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 16 (16 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends loading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 3,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 3,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages APD Tade at 3,000 yards
xAK Sinno Maru sunk by BB Mississippi at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages APD Tade at 7,000 yards
DD Hughes engages APD Tade at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
APD Tade sunk by BB Mississippi at 10,000 yards
APD Tade sunk by BB Mississippi at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...


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Night Time Surface Combat, near Pago Pago at 148,161, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami, Shell hits 2, on fire
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Akigumo
DD Hatsukaze
DD Yukikaze
DD Amatsukaze
DD Kasumi
DD Sanae
DD Yomogi, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi, Shell hits 34, heavy fires
CA Chester, Shell hits 9, on fire
DD Hughes, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Mustin, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 7,000 yards
BB Mississippi fires at CA Mogami at 7,000 yards
Magazine explodes on DD Yomogi
DD Yomogi sunk by BB Mississippi at 7,000 yards
BB Mississippi fires at DD Yukikaze at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 3,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Mogami at 3,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Mustin at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 4,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Chester at 4,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 4,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Yukikaze at 4,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Mustin at 4,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Akigumo at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 5,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Chester at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 7,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Chester at 7,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Sanae at 7,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Hughes at 7,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Hughes at 7,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Mustin at 7,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 7,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 7,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Sanae at 7,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Hughes at 7,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Hughes at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 9,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 9,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Yukikaze at 9,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Mustin at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Hughes at 9,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Hughes at 9,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Hatsukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Hughes at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Chester at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Sanae at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 11,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Kasumi at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Amatsukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
Bode, H. orders Allied TF to disengage
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 11,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Mikuma at 11,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Hughes at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 9,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 9,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Amatsukaze at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 8,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CA Chester at 8,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Sanae at 8,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Amatsukaze at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 5,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 5,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
DD Yukikaze engages DD Mustin at 5,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Hughes at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CA Chester at 2,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Mikuma at 2,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Sanae at 2,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Hughes at 2,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Yukikaze at 2,000 yards
BB Mississippi engages CA Mikuma at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CA Chester at 2,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages BB Mississippi at 2,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Mustin at 2,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Kasumi at 2,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Hatsukaze at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 6,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Mikuma at 6,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Mustin at 6,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Kasumi at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages BB Mississippi at 11,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Mikuma at 11,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes sunk by DD Kasumi at 11,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Amatsukaze at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Losses also heavy on the air;

this was mostly over Calcutta; I decided to do multiple sweeps, and I am happy with the end result:
lots of hard to replace British airplanes lost, at the cost of abundant Oscars

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Time for a little oiler revenge:

my float planes saw this TF south east of Noumea, so I just needed to set a course to intercept.

all gone

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Royal Sovereign is confirmed:

[Jorge_Stanbury]

And the most interesting development of the turn,

he decided to invade Sydney island; a small 0(0) atoll near the more developed Canton

which leaves me puzzled... what can you do with so small bases?

should I try to recapture it? or maybe just use Canton's LBAs to deny supply and or bomb him



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Amphibious Assault at Sydney Island (153,145)

TF 160 troops unloading over beach at Sydney Island, 153,145

Allied ground losses:
210 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 72 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 11 (0 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 20 (0 destroyed, 20 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Sydney Island (153,145)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 1278 troops, 16 guns, 12 vehicles, Assault Value = 32

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 0

Allied adjusted assault: 30

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 30 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Sydney Island !!!

Combat modifiers
Attacker: shock(+), fatigue(-)

Assaulting units:
1st/102nd Infantry Battalion
134th Cmbt Engineer Battalion
7th Base Group /1

[jwolf]

You can probably wipe him out of Sydney island by bombing -- unless, that is, he's coming in with a lot more.

[IdahoNYer]

I don't get his purpose - wasting some very valuable troops at this point in the war IMO.
Base Group and combat engineers could be better used elsewhere.

Destroying these units wouldn't be a bad idea - but it would involve a lot of supporting cover - using fuel - is it worth it?

Also don't understand putting old BB and a CA together as a raiding force - too slow and the BB too valuable for bombardment later to risk now.....

[Bif1961]

I say wipe them out now so he has to spend time and effort rebuilding and he may not have them when he needs them in 1943-44. You get VPs for destroying them and not isolating them.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Base group and engineers are only scarce early war, by mid 42, the US will churn them at an amazing rate; literally a flood of engineers.

But I think I will still go after them, not in a hurry, I will simply prep a couple regiments (one for Sydney, another for Enderbury), then see what happens. There is already a LBA squadron at Canton and the KB will arrive in 2 or 3 days. Other than submarines, it will be a challenge to supply these poor castaways

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Today the enemy lost 4 Kingfisher FPs to ground... which means a cruiser went down.



Could this be CA Chester? recently engaged; I am kind of struggling with it because it was only hit 9 times, and as you can see, damage was only "on fire"; could it be some catastrophic event afterwards?

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi, Shell hits 34, heavy fires
CA Chester, Shell hits 9, on fire
DD Hughes, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Mustin, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Mississippi would be a much better candidate for sinking, but it can only fit 2 planes + 1 reserve. Maybe some other cruiser damaged long ago, in transit to port? in any case, whoever sank is good news for the empire


Other naval news:
- another Allied convoy found, 3 AGs, 2 xAKs sunk

- interesting naval search results on the AM phase, but there were no strikes, with the exception of a lack luster attack against Sydney island invasion fleet. This yielded only one small 60kg bomb hit on AK Hugh Scott.
I will definitively split KB to expand the search and pocket Mississippi

AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : AM
G4M1 Betty sighting report: 8 Allied ships at 153,145 near Sydney Island , Speed unknown
B5N2 Kate has spotted an Allied CA at 154,163
D3A1 Val sighting report: 2 Allied ships at 129,113 near Ebadon , Speed 14 , Moving Northwest
E13A1 Jake sighting report: 3 Allied ships at 145,180 near Eua , Speed 11 , Moving East
E13A1 Jake sighting report: Allied BB at 143,174 near Niue , Speed 13 , Moving Southwest

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Raoul Island at 138,185, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Chikuma
CA Aoba
CA Furutaka
DD Uranami
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Yugiri
DD Amagiri

Allied Ships
AG Bridge, Shell hits 32, and is sunk
xAK Chios, Shell hits 37, and is sunk
xAK Evi Livanos, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AG Missourian, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
AG Challenger, Shell hits 18, and is sunk

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Sydney Island at 153,145

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Preston
DD Clark
AP Hugh L. Scott, Bomb hits 1
AP President Jackson

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 3000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

[Jorge_Stanbury]

In Australia, I had paratroops ready for the first hint of Allied withdrawal from Darwin.. which came last turn

results were really good; I got a base force on rail!

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Ground combat at Fenton (76,126)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 314 troops, 4 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 23

Defending force 1814 troops, 16 guns, 15 vehicles, Assault Value = 7

Japanese adjusted assault: 18

Allied adjusted defense: 6

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Fenton !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: op mode(-), leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)

Allied ground losses:
541 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 28 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 7 (7 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 13 (13 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF /1

Defending units:
Darwin RAN Base Force