This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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geofflambert
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: Ormbane

The question of what makes or keeps a forum friendly is interesting. It seems, however, that no matter how friendly and welcoming a forum is in our modern world sooner or later trolls happen. I recently read a synopsis of one study that was done on the nature of trolls. Some people were identified and interviewed that frequently troll forums, and their "real lives" were examined as well. Unfortunately the synopsis didn't go into what psychological factors may or may not have led people to become trolls, but the synopsis reported that the study concluded that trolls, in general, are "losers" (their word, not mine) in real life. So, given that trolls happen, the common folk wisdom that has grown up is simply, "don't feed the trolls" in order to keep a discussion on track and friendly, whereas the purpose of trolls is normally to get things off track and argumentative (or worse).

That said, I personally enjoy this forum and treasure the straight, matter-of-fact input from people like Geofflambert and the gentle, patient but precise responses from people like Alfred [;)]

You forgot to put the words "extremely rare" before the word "straight". [:'(]

Timotheus
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by Timotheus »

In the USA and Western Europe, anytime someone states something challenging and/or controversial there are usually two reactions:
1) He's a troll, ignore what he wrote, usually followed by
2) Ban him and delete what he wrote.

Pathetic. Scary that old marines and soldiers have reached this level of "I need my safe space". Expected better... Shouldn't have. I guess western society is worse off now than I expected.


I stand by what I said, several attempts at derailing and (just terrible) puns and jokes notwithstanding.

This game is an incredibly complicated one. But whereas in other games/hobbies people who love said games/hobbies make every effort to promote, entice, and then to help new "recruits" (so to speak), here there is none of that.

The "old guard" does zero effort to help their hobby (i.e. WITPAE).

Their effort, such as it is, is limited to deigning to a reply to a forum post asking for help on a specific topic... or making a joke about it. Or putting down a complete newbie who does a youtube series to promote the game (granted, he was terrible, but he is learning and actually not making many mistakes now).

There was some effort at tutorials/guides.... but that happened roughly 10-15 years ago.

What is needed is actual guides and tutorials, ones that are hopefully after the year A.D. 2000!

What guides there are are scattered all over the place, some are in the (terrifyingly mismanaged, just a mess) sticky section - many are not and so are lost in the forum.

I expect a comeback of "troll" and "ban" - par for the course, when there are no arguments and dealing with a modern western "man".
I also expect the "Use the forum search function!", which is also expected due to lazy, zero effort of the "old guard" to grow the community and help newcomers.

A lot of this stems from matrix forums - they are godawful and their design is the worst I've seen. Clutter everywhere, sticky topics of a sale that happened 5 years ago blocking the page, actual helpful posts and tutorials and guides either very hard to find in the "stickies" topics or not there at all ("Use the forum search function!" - yeah, right, good luck with that).


So, zero effort to grow and help the community, those who do their efforts are lost in the ether and hard to find.


PS
Someone make a youtube guide with voice over that can be actually understood, for ***** sake. That's the minimum that should happen.
I would argue that matrix, the company, SHOULD ITSELF do this - video tutorials on youtube/matrix page.

But we're dealing with a company stuck in the 1980's boardgame era who are proud to sell/move as few units as possible (despite having some fantastic games, like Distant Worlds which I wrote a guide for), and zero marketing and promotional know how.


So, I expect some pithy, terrible puns and jokes, perhaps a ban and nothing to change ("We are working on the stickies" - yeah, when in an American company an exec/employee says to expect something to happen as they are "working on it".... it will happen...after 25 years or so).


Extra:
Look up Steam. See that GUIDE tab on every game? If a game is complicated and the community needs it, members will STEP UP and write/post a guide or two to help new players. See how easy it is to organize something like that ("But we have WAR ROOM" - yeah, it's not clear what the **** it is, really, and what should go in there. GUIDE is much clearer).

Look up Distant Worlds on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/gu ... s%5B%5D=-1

One of these guides is mine, actually, as I really loved this game and played the heck out of it and wanted others to experience it - and they were stopped by "game plays itself" and "what do I do, there are no guides and it's so complicated".

Seriously, matrix, I love your hardcore, niche games, but your website and forum suck. They are bad even by 1980 BBS standards! Disorganized, unhelpful mess for every game.

Grab your ***** and fix your ****, matrix.
NEWBIE GUIDE Distant Worlds Universe
http://tinyurl.com/k3frrle

War in the Pacific Poradnik po Polsku
http://tinyurl.com/nxd4cesh

INSTALL WITPAE on modern PC
https://tinyurl.com/l5kr6rl
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Canoerebel
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by Canoerebel »

Brother, you need to look in the mirror. The reflection you see of the snarky, snarly, unfriendly person is you.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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rkr1958
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

They are bad even by 1980 BBS standards! Disorganized, unhelpful mess for every game.
I know I'm getting old and forgetful but I don't recall any on-line forums in the 1980's. Heck, it was the mid 1990's before I got a computer with a modem and that was 19.9 kilo-bits dial-up. And even then I don't recall anything like Matrix around. Did I miss something?
Ronnie
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by Will_L_OLD »

Thanks for making me spray my drink through my nose [:D]
ORIGINAL: Alpha77

People always left when I entered a bar and wanted to talk with em [:(] They said behind my back "not this guy again wanna talk about his latest carrier battle in some BS computer game" [:@]
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rkr1958
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by rkr1958 »

By the way I've got birthday coming up this month and was thinking about getting WiTP-AE as a present for myself. I'm an avid MWiF player. I've done several solo (MWiF) AAR's and I'm currently in a two-player AAR. I really love MWiF and do devote a lot of time to it. I also enjoy the naval part of MWiF, especially in the Pacific. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger (i.e., buying this game) is my concern of balancing gaming time (especially if I add this game given my devotion to MWiF) with family, life, work and, oh ... football (college and pro). [:)]
Ronnie
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geofflambert
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by geofflambert »

Family, life and work. I am unfamiliar with these concepts. [:'(]

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geofflambert
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by geofflambert »

Timotheus -



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btd64
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

In the USA and Western Europe, anytime someone states something challenging and/or controversial there are usually two reactions:
1) He's a troll, ignore what he wrote, usually followed by
2) Ban him and delete what he wrote.

Pathetic. Scary that old marines and soldiers have reached this level of "I need my safe space". Expected better... Shouldn't have. I guess western society is worse off now than I expected.


I stand by what I said, several attempts at derailing and (just terrible) puns and jokes notwithstanding.

This game is an incredibly complicated one. But whereas in other games/hobbies people who love said games/hobbies make every effort to promote, entice, and then to help new "recruits" (so to speak), here there is none of that.

The "old guard" does zero effort to help their hobby (i.e. WITPAE).

Their effort, such as it is, is limited to deigning to a reply to a forum post asking for help on a specific topic... or making a joke about it. Or putting down a complete newbie who does a youtube series to promote the game (granted, he was terrible, but he is learning and actually not making many mistakes now).

There was some effort at tutorials/guides.... but that happened roughly 10-15 years ago.

What is needed is actual guides and tutorials, ones that are hopefully after the year A.D. 2000!

What guides there are are scattered all over the place, some are in the (terrifyingly mismanaged, just a mess) sticky section - many are not and so are lost in the forum.

I expect a comeback of "troll" and "ban" - par for the course, when there are no arguments and dealing with a modern western "man".
I also expect the "Use the forum search function!", which is also expected due to lazy, zero effort of the "old guard" to grow the community and help newcomers.

A lot of this stems from matrix forums - they are godawful and their design is the worst I've seen. Clutter everywhere, sticky topics of a sale that happened 5 years ago blocking the page, actual helpful posts and tutorials and guides either very hard to find in the "stickies" topics or not there at all ("Use the forum search function!" - yeah, right, good luck with that).


So, zero effort to grow and help the community, those who do their efforts are lost in the ether and hard to find.


PS
Someone make a youtube guide with voice over that can be actually understood, for ***** sake. That's the minimum that should happen.
I would argue that matrix, the company, SHOULD ITSELF do this - video tutorials on youtube/matrix page.

But we're dealing with a company stuck in the 1980's boardgame era who are proud to sell/move as few units as possible (despite having some fantastic games, like Distant Worlds which I wrote a guide for), and zero marketing and promotional know how.


So, I expect some pithy, terrible puns and jokes, perhaps a ban and nothing to change ("We are working on the stickies" - yeah, when in an American company an exec/employee says to expect something to happen as they are "working on it".... it will happen...after 25 years or so).


Extra:
Look up Steam. See that GUIDE tab on every game? If a game is complicated and the community needs it, members will STEP UP and write/post a guide or two to help new players. See how easy it is to organize something like that ("But we have WAR ROOM" - yeah, it's not clear what the **** it is, really, and what should go in there. GUIDE is much clearer).

Look up Distant Worlds on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/gu ... s%5B%5D=-1

One of these guides is mine, actually, as I really loved this game and played the heck out of it and wanted others to experience it - and they were stopped by "game plays itself" and "what do I do, there are no guides and it's so complicated".

Seriously, matrix, I love your hardcore, niche games, but your website and forum suck. They are bad even by 1980 BBS standards! Disorganized, unhelpful mess for every game.

Grab your ***** and fix your ****, matrix.

You know, in the beginning I tried to be friendly to you, but you have made that attempt a waste of time. Do us all a favor and disappear. Never though I would say that to anyone, but you have gone way over the edge. If you have a better place to go, then GO. I for one Like the Matrix Forums and I'm sure a lot to the people here agree. And that is all I have to say to you....GP

PS: My friends, stop giving this waste product more attention. Close the thread......
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"Do everything you ask of those you command"....Gen. George S. Patton
T Rav
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by T Rav »

There is a reason why I keep coming to this forum. It isn't for the knuckle-heads like the guy that started this thread, it's for the wise ones that are on here. I've been a lurker for almost a decade... thank you for your support.
jmalter
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by jmalter »

The OP has earned my red dot in record time, less than 24 hrs. Congratulations!
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geofflambert
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by geofflambert »

We need to defend the game and the forum so that people who stop by to look don't swallow what the odd Timotheus says, someone who is into fantasy games and not historical games. I think that is his fundamental problem. This is the best historical wargame in existence bar nothing, even trolls. He should return to the games he likes and the forums he likes and stop vandalizing this one. Our moderator will not block him and shouldn't. He's clearly intelligent but hasn't been particularly abusive in a personal fashion, hasn't talked about politics or religion. He doesn't understand that this is not just a game. It's the best simulation I've ever seen attempted of historical fact. Gorns are not real, I just do that for laughs. What is STEAM? Is that for laughs too?

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wdolson
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by wdolson »

Let's not resort to personal attacks. The OP expressed an opinion. He is right that there are too many sticky posts and there has been a recent discussion about that.

On the other comments, I do disagree that this forum is unkind to newbies. Some people are gruff and there is some tomfoolery that could be mistaken for something else by a new member. I have seen the same questions brought up over and over again, but while sometimes they might get answered with a link to a previous discussion, often they get an all new answer from one of the old hands.

This game has one of the toughest learning curves of any game out there, even with help. It takes a while just to get competent and I'm not sure it can be mastered.

Anyway, please keep the comments polite. While I don't completely agree with the OP, he has a right to express his opinion. Maybe if we had some examples where newbies were being treated unfairly, we could address those instances.

Bill

WIS Development Team
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rkr1958
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
This game has one of the toughest learning curves of any game out there, even with help. It takes a while just to get competent and I'm not sure it can be mastered.
How would you compare this game's learning curve and ability to play competently to that of MWiF?
Ronnie
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scout1
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by scout1 »

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

In the USA and Western Europe, anytime someone states something challenging and/or controversial there are usually two reactions:
1) He's a troll, ignore what he wrote, usually followed by
2) Ban him and delete what he wrote.

Pathetic. Scary that old marines and soldiers have reached this level of "I need my safe space". Expected better... Shouldn't have. I guess western society is worse off now than I expected.


I stand by what I said, several attempts at derailing and (just terrible) puns and jokes notwithstanding.

This game is an incredibly complicated one. But whereas in other games/hobbies people who love said games/hobbies make every effort to promote, entice, and then to help new "recruits" (so to speak), here there is none of that.

The "old guard" does zero effort to help their hobby (i.e. WITPAE).

Their effort, such as it is, is limited to deigning to a reply to a forum post asking for help on a specific topic... or making a joke about it. Or putting down a complete newbie who does a youtube series to promote the game (granted, he was terrible, but he is learning and actually not making many mistakes now).

There was some effort at tutorials/guides.... but that happened roughly 10-15 years ago.

What is needed is actual guides and tutorials, ones that are hopefully after the year A.D. 2000!

What guides there are are scattered all over the place, some are in the (terrifyingly mismanaged, just a mess) sticky section - many are not and so are lost in the forum.

I expect a comeback of "troll" and "ban" - par for the course, when there are no arguments and dealing with a modern western "man".
I also expect the "Use the forum search function!", which is also expected due to lazy, zero effort of the "old guard" to grow the community and help newcomers.

A lot of this stems from matrix forums - they are godawful and their design is the worst I've seen. Clutter everywhere, sticky topics of a sale that happened 5 years ago blocking the page, actual helpful posts and tutorials and guides either very hard to find in the "stickies" topics or not there at all ("Use the forum search function!" - yeah, right, good luck with that).


So, zero effort to grow and help the community, those who do their efforts are lost in the ether and hard to find.


PS
Someone make a youtube guide with voice over that can be actually understood, for ***** sake. That's the minimum that should happen.
I would argue that matrix, the company, SHOULD ITSELF do this - video tutorials on youtube/matrix page.

But we're dealing with a company stuck in the 1980's boardgame era who are proud to sell/move as few units as possible (despite having some fantastic games, like Distant Worlds which I wrote a guide for), and zero marketing and promotional know how.


So, I expect some pithy, terrible puns and jokes, perhaps a ban and nothing to change ("We are working on the stickies" - yeah, when in an American company an exec/employee says to expect something to happen as they are "working on it".... it will happen...after 25 years or so).


Extra:
Look up Steam. See that GUIDE tab on every game? If a game is complicated and the community needs it, members will STEP UP and write/post a guide or two to help new players. See how easy it is to organize something like that ("But we have WAR ROOM" - yeah, it's not clear what the **** it is, really, and what should go in there. GUIDE is much clearer).

Look up Distant Worlds on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/gu ... s%5B%5D=-1

One of these guides is mine, actually, as I really loved this game and played the heck out of it and wanted others to experience it - and they were stopped by "game plays itself" and "what do I do, there are no guides and it's so complicated".

Seriously, matrix, I love your hardcore, niche games, but your website and forum suck. They are bad even by 1980 BBS standards! Disorganized, unhelpful mess for every game.

Grab your ***** and fix your ****, matrix.

Dude, you appear to expect the world handed to you ... and when it isn't you go postal on those who have preceded you ... If you truly want to learn the game, get off your duff and invest some time. If you don't want to .... move along doggie as all you are doing is bellyaching about what you expect others to do for you ...
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btd64
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by btd64 »

Are you talking about "world in flames"?....GP
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AKA General Patton

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WIS Manual Team Lead & Beta Support Team

"Do everything you ask of those you command"....Gen. George S. Patton
desicat
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by desicat »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

We need to defend the game and the forum so that people who stop by to look don't swallow what the odd Timotheus says, someone who is into fantasy games and not historical games. I think that is his fundamental problem. This is the best historical wargame in existence bar nothing, even trolls. He should return to the games he likes and the forums he likes and stop vandalizing this one. Our moderator will not block him and shouldn't. He's clearly intelligent but hasn't been particularly abusive in a personal fashion, hasn't talked about politics or religion. He doesn't understand that this is not just a game. It's the best simulation I've ever seen attempted of historical fact. Gorns are not real, I just do that for laughs. What is STEAM? Is that for laughs too?

Gorns are not real? Shirly you jest?

Steam was used to provide engine power for naval vessels after wind power. Steam generation took many forms from wood to coal to petroleum products to nuclear power.

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Anachro
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by Anachro »

Pseudo societal analysis, aside, I agree that there are various ways the forum can be improved and reorganized. As a newbie, I too found trying to digest the (immense) information and help in the forum a chaotic process. However, not debilitatingly so; it just required extra effort on my part, some trial-and-error, and a Guadalcanal PBEM where I really began to learn the game. Yes, the War Room and other sub-forums could use some re-organization and skillful pruning of unneeded topics and stickies, but there is already a thread on this which I hope will see some action taken.

However, the people on the forum are very helpful when asked and I don't know where that outburst comes from. Instead of making incendiary comments and adopting a negative tone, be constructive. Maybe you can help in making the guide you want, perhaps an all-in-one thread with helpful links, suggestions, and information. Get it stickied. Anyways, all I ask is that is that you stick around for a bit and try learning about the community a little bit more, Timotheus. I'd hate for you to turn away and not buy a (great) game because of two threads that you made and the reaction to them.
"Now excuse me while I go polish my balls ..." - BBfanboy
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reg113
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by reg113 »

I have just used the 'Green Button' for the very first time on the OP! [:@]
"Life's a b***h, then you die."
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wdolson
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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
This game has one of the toughest learning curves of any game out there, even with help. It takes a while just to get competent and I'm not sure it can be mastered.
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
How would you compare this game's learning curve and ability to play competently to that of MWiF?

World in Flames? I've never played the game, so I can't say.

Bill
WIS Development Team
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