Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

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Peltonx
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Peltonx »

So morveal you really do not understand how 1.0 logistics works?

you are going to "fix" something you do not know it works?

basicly the same as 2by3 tring to fix WitW logistic and they have no fing clue how that works?

so

2.0 is doomed because the people doing the coding of 1.0 and WitW have no fing idea how logistics based on their coding?

MT ASK allot more questions because you have a clue based on exp and the same goes for Bozo and Sapper.

What is amazing is some really really smart people have no clue whats going on

I am a retard and know how this works and cant code a fing thing 1.0 or 2.0

Morveal your fix sucks and you know it - my fix is better and you and 2by3 know it but will not do it because its Peltons idea?

Which is why 2.0 is looking hopeless at this point
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morvael
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Will the fix affect normal (non airlift) fuel accumulation that you see in HQ's? And the ability to move that supply forward? Eg the fuel the HQ's start with. I fear for breaking other indirectly related supply/fuel functions that are part of the normal supply process.


Why would it?
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Michael T
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Michael T »

I will let that one go through to the keeper.

But to be honest I don't think this is going in the right direction. Why shouldn't we be able to drop fuel on a HQ and truck it forward? A truck is a truck, whether in a HQ or a Unit. Why is it trucks in units can move fuel forward but not trucks in HQ's?

The fix is overly restrictive IMO.

I think a hard cap seems a more sensible limit rather than a total ban. Why not a sensible limit that each HQ can accept from air lifts.

The player is using trucks to move the fuel forward. That is the price he is paying. I still think a limit on how much fuel a HQ can hold and move is more sensible. And restrict it to Panzer/Tank HQ's only.
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morvael
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by morvael »

This is IMHO the only fix that will work and prevent HQ from being airborne fuel carriers. HQBUed HQs are now less prone to this abuse, because of the reassignment restrictions on the turn of HQBU and turn after.
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Peltonx
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is IMHO the only fix that will work and prevent HQ from being airborne fuel carriers. HQBUed HQs are now less prone to this abuse, because of the reassignment restrictions on the turn of HQBU and turn after.

Thanks for all hard work morveal.

I sure hope your right about this - I will trust your judgement on this as you been right more then I have in the past.

This issue has carry over going forward just not in this game 1.0 I am begging you and 2by3 to focus on this area going forward.


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Peltonx
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
The easy fix should be only 2 missions can be flown to any one hex including Fuel drops and recon. Not 10+ like Bozo is doing.

In my game against Stef I usually made two drops. Only once I made three drops. The 1500 fuel HQ was only for test purposes.

The easiest fix would be to set a limit of 1 drop per unit after which the unit has 0 MP. A hard limit of 750 fuel is way too much. I never had more then 800 fuel in any HQ. Usually around 400/500.

This exploit is bad for 41 but it's downright crazy when you think how many Ju-52s the Germans get for their 42 offensive. Soviets can abuse this too but most games don't make it to 43/44 anyway.

I'm just the messenger so don't yell at me.

Its a good "find" and you brought it to light in an AAR so it could not be over looked.

Good Job




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darbycmcd
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by darbycmcd »

Part of the the issue is you are trying to find a solution for a problem that shouldn't be in the game at all. Air lift of fuel for even a single division sized unit for offensive operations DID NOT HAPPEN in the war, let alone a week of operations. Last time we talked about this, someone pointed out that there probably was a week or two of operations by a mech brigade in Burma supported by air, and someone else pointed out that an armor brigade was supported by air in 73 iirc. But not on the Eastern Front. It just didn't happen. The whole idea of using airlift as a form of HQBU, which is itself a flawed game construct, is just completely fantasy. Front line HQs should not be drawing supplies from airdrops ever if they are able to draw supplies overland. I looked at the amount of verifiable air supply and found that, for example, the total lift of supplies during Fall Blau amounted to something like 20k tons, the majority was personnel transfer. That is enough to support a single division for about 3 weeks of fighting....

I know people have read about air dropped supplies feeding the spearhead, but you have to understand the difference between dropping a few tons of bullets so that an Aufklärung bn can clear the village ahead, and dropping 1000 tons of fuel so an entire division can rumble 150 miles through the russian countryside.

There were 2 major supply airlift attempts, both of which used nearly ALL available airlift for the front, Demyansk and Stalingrad. Both used established airbases, ie concrete runways. Neither was able to deliver 400 tons a day, and averaged closer to 200 per day. The total fuel delivered to Stalingrad was about 880 tons, for the entire airlift. At Demyansk, there were about 64k tons of supplies delivered, but this took more than 32k sorties and the period from early Feb to 5 May. Interestingly, the airlift used 42k tons of fuel and 3k tons of lubricants.

There is a good discussion here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=43495
with some great photos, especially the ones of them unloading fuel barrels. Imagine how long it would take to unload enough barrels to fill up an entire panzer division for even one day of operations.
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Michael T
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Michael T »

You forget that without HQBU or Air drop of fuel the supply system cannot replicate the blitzkrieg of 1941. WITE lacks the ability to prioritize units with fuel or build up stock piles (fixed in witw I beleive). Hence the need for other abstracted fuel/supply methods. So IMO flying in fuel and HQBU is justified o these grounds. If abuse occurs limit it. Which has been happening ever since release. But a total ban does not get my vote. It weakens the Germans yet again with no compensation.
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Peltonx
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You forget that without HQBU or Air drop of fuel the supply system cannot replicate the blitzkrieg of 1941. WITE lacks the ability to prioritize units with fuel or build up stock piles (fixed in witw I beleive). Hence the need for other abstracted fuel/supply methods. So IMO flying in fuel and HQBU is justified o these grounds. If abuse occurs limit it. Which has been happening ever since release. But a total ban does not get my vote. It weakens the Germans yet again with no compensation.

I forget the patch but they basicly nerfed it out and game was a disaster.

Germany could not get past the major rivers during summer and Russia was driving on Berlin by summer of 42 with Berlin falling in 43.

Which is why UBER nerf was removed and small nerfs done patch after patch.

The logistics is not the issue with Russia its generally a complete lack of player skills.

MT has been winning even when there were 6-8 HQBU/logistics exploits as Russia.

Now there is 1 and its a small one.
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darbycmcd
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by darbycmcd »

Michael, that is a good point. If you are right, then yes it is better to have it. It is an ahistorical kluge (bleh!) but you are right that the historical effect of blitzkrieg is important. I am not totally convinced that HQBU/Air drop are necessary to get historical advances, but you make a salient point.

I guess also that it doesn't really matter because all the work is going into 2.0 now so the game is what it is at this point.
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snowflake
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by snowflake »

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Part of the the issue is you are trying to find a solution for a problem that shouldn't be in the game at all. Air lift of fuel for even a single division sized unit for offensive operations DID NOT HAPPEN in the war, let alone a week of operations.

I don't know how they implemented such a algoritm in WitE?
Flef
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Flef »

I'm sorry to bump into the thread but how the HQ fuel trick works? It is the first time I hear about.
I'm curious.
Stelteck
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Stelteck »

The exploit is to use the luftwaffe to overload and HQ with fuel (using fuel drops), while this HQ sit at berlin on the railroad.
Then this HQ is transfered to the front with tons of fuel reserve (far more than normal ressuply or HQ builtup) and used to ressuply armored divisions.

It is terrible.
Brakes are for cowards !!
Flef
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Flef »

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

The exploit is to use the luftwaffe to overload and HQ with fuel (using fuel drops), while this HQ sit at berlin on the railroad.
Then this HQ is transfered to the front with tons of fuel reserve (far more than normal ressuply or HQ builtup) and used to ressuply armored divisions.

It is terrible.
awwww I never thought this.
Clever.

but well fair players won't use it.
Hey.
Promise
è_é
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morvael
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

The exploit is to use the luftwaffe to overload and HQ with fuel (using fuel drops), while this HQ sit at berlin on the railroad.
Then this HQ is transfered to the front with tons of fuel reserve (far more than normal ressuply or HQ builtup) and used to ressuply armored divisions.

It is terrible.

It is gone as of the next patch - 1.09.01.
Stelteck
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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit

Post by Stelteck »

[&o][&o] great news
Brakes are for cowards !!
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