MUST HAVE Japanese planes

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey
I cannot speak for DBB, but in Scenario 1 rushing the Ki-100-I is probably a mistake. I have attached a snippet from a spreadsheet I put together to predict *average* outcomes from different research approaches. Your Ki-100's will be in use for only a couple months if you also accelerate the Ki-84 to the same level - and the Ki-84 is a markedly better aircraft (see red boxes in picture) with only one minor drawback (CL cannons are more accurate and do more damage than wing mounted forward facing (FF)). Also note that the results with the Ki100 are as a result of skipping research on intermediate aircraft models in the Ki-61 line. Some players feel this practice by the JFB is gamey - I don't, but...

Yeah, also SR 1 vs 3... And don't underestimate the CL cannons against bombers. Ki-100 shreds
I recall Lokasenna is ok with skipping along R&D chain, we were discussing things in that framework. If you skip, you can get Ki-100 in first half of 1943 with like 4 30x factories. Good luck with accelerating Frank same way.

Point was, Ha-31 is not that essential engine, one can do with or one can do without, no crucial difference, more like personal choice

I skipped up to the Ki-100. It is instrumental. You absolutely need it for CAP purposes. Also, a 9/1/43 arrival date for it would be plenty fine - you shouldn't really be subjected to a concentrated Allied advance at that point. If you are because you're trying to make up for some grievous error or bad luck or something, then maybe allocating more resources to it would be wise.

FWIW, I got mine in 7/43 in Scen 2 with 4 factories and I imagine a lot of engine bonus.

Note that its cannons are CL, while the Frank's cannons are wing. The Ki-100 is your bread and butter (and maybe jelly, too) for fighting bombers for a very long time.

[rustysi]

Some players feel this practice by the JFB is gamey - I don't, but...

I do and I play Japan. Its my feeling that Japan is given something in the game not given to the Allies to make the game a little more play balanced. Don't abuse it by skipping models in the development string. Please follow the wire chart development path. Thank you.[:)]

As usual JMHO, but when I get to PBEM this is how I will choose to play from both sides.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Not sure if this one is the best NF, don't have the first-hand experience. But seems like Japan hardly needs lots of NFs - they rarely dogfight.

Think again. You may need all of the NF you can get.

It all depends on your opponent, but if they go for your industry and you have only a few NF groups, not very deep pools, the game will be over in 4-6 months. B-29s are devastating if used well.

If you need some further research on this check out my AAR Wild Sheep's Chase. This is my endgame post on NF (answering a question by Lowpe who later became a NF authority).

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3571192

This is just one of many bombing runs on a day near the end where I note that around 50 NF are shot down for the loss of 5-6 B-29s. Other days were better and the Nf did their job, and overall they definitely reduced the effects of strat bombing, delaying the end somewhat. You definitely need them, lots of them! [:)]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 28, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Nagoya , at 111,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 11
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 8
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 34

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed
Ki-45 KAId Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 8000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

IJA Transport? Thalia. Best range and all the army ones move essentially the same amount of supply per trip .. so range is all that matters. Uses Ha-35 .. have tons of those. Topsy uses Ha-5 or Ha-31 ... neither of which I keep in production after 12/7/42.

So... you don't build any Jakes (Ha-31)?

Scen 1: Jake uses Ha-33. In any case, yes, I build lots. and then some more on top. Used in ASW/NavSearch in droves.

Ha-5 - I commit all of them to Ki-21-Ic because it is a model to enable upgrade to 2E without PP penalty for many 1E bomber groups. Plus I am always scrambling for Ha-32/33 engines early on and I always need 2E bombers early.

Ha-31 - mostly committed to Ki-15-II Babs. I use a LOT of recon and take a lot of air losses because of it. DL though makes all the difference in attacks, so I make my choice and live with it.

[rustysi]

Think again. You may need all of the NF you can get.

OK, but isn't it true that Japan doesn't get that many NF groups. Also the Nick is slower than the B-29 so its not one I would like to produce. My aim is to get the Dinah first. Followed by a couple of others that will eventually get radar. What do you think?

[PaxMondo]

With respect to NF's, and just my opinion, I no longer value them like I did. The issue is simple: you get VERY few groups that can upgrade to NF's and you need a LOT of groups on night CAP. That means you have to use regular fighters in a NF role and my experience is that they do just as well as the specialty planes, and I have a LOT more of them to replace all the losses. Just me, YMMV.

[rustysi]

I commit all of them to Ki-21-Ic because it is a model to enable upgrade to 2E without PP penalty for many 1E bomber groups.

I never realized this. Something else I need to check.

Ha-31 - mostly committed to Ki-15-II Babs. I use a LOT of recon and take a lot of air losses because of it. DL though makes all the difference in attacks, so I make my choice and live with it.

Agree that some Ha-31 are need for recon A/C, but the Babs seems to take it on the chops. I use them for the Dinah II's which seem to me to be much more survivable. I know its a two engine A/C, but have you considered it?

[PaxMondo]

Dinah II is more survivable, but needs 2x AF size, each loss is 2 Babs, etc. I'm ok with my Babs losses ... I mean I wish they were lower, but I am consciously putting them into harm's way.

[SheperdN7]

ORIGINAL: Obvert
You must be playing DBB with Symon's air mods!!

If DBB-C has that, then yes.

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I'd just like to point one thing out. The L2D2 (Tabby for the Moose) is a navy A/C and the Topsy is army. AFAIK the two shall never meet and are not interchangeable. Even with PDU on it shouldn't matter. So based on that you'll need both. As for me though I only produce the Topsy's that I absolutely need and switch to the Helen based transport when it becomes available. No research here, just 'natural' development.

If i'm wrong would someone advise. Thanks.

The rest of the debate can go on 'ad nauseam' as I've stated my preferences above. I even think I stated the transport statement as well. At any rate the A/C production for a JFB is a personal preference and should be chosen to support his/her style of play.

Disclaimer: The above is JMHO.

Yes you're right, my mistake!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Think again. You may need all of the NF you can get.

OK, but isn't it true that Japan doesn't get that many NF groups. Also the Nick is slower than the B-29 so its not one I would like to produce. My aim is to get the Dinah first. Followed by a couple of others that will eventually get radar. What do you think?

This makes sense, but doesn't really play out like that at all. In game a good NF needs armor, good durability, and some 20mm canons. If it has radar (working) that is even better.

The Irving is slower than the Nick but was my most useful night fighter once the radar equipped version came online. The Dinah is fragile and dies in droves, but does harass the beasts. Looking forward to the Nick Id as it has the amor and durability to go with the 20mm. The Frances is also decent, and the Randy, but it comes late.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

With respect to NF's, and just my opinion, I no longer value them like I did. The issue is simple: you get VERY few groups that can upgrade to NF's and you need a LOT of groups on night CAP. That means you have to use regular fighters in a NF role and my experience is that they do just as well as the specialty planes, and I have a LOT more of them to replace all the losses. Just me, YMMV.

You get more than is easily apparent. They do a LOT better than even FB at night. Just ask Jocke.

Lowpe made a list of all NF groups and how o find them. Here it is:

[rustysi]

Thanks for the feed-back guys. Good stuff. Appreciated.

[scout1]

So lets do a restart here ... later in the war, the Empire will need a solid fighter and a solid interceptor, irrespective whether its IJA or IJN .....
Needing the have the Allied player to feel pain on its path to the home islands .....

What two airframes fit this bill ?

Bombers are interesting but can't see the he need later in the war unless I'm overlooking something ......

[SheperdN7]

In concept you would think that the A7M-J is the best interceptor in the game, high speed and MASSIVE armament as well as good durability and armour.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

With respect to NF's, and just my opinion, I no longer value them like I did. The issue is simple: you get VERY few groups that can upgrade to NF's and you need a LOT of groups on night CAP. That means you have to use regular fighters in a NF role and my experience is that they do just as well as the specialty planes, and I have a LOT more of them to replace all the losses. Just me, YMMV.

You get more than is easily apparent. They do a LOT better than even FB at night. Just ask Jocke.

Lowpe made a list of all NF groups and how o find them. Here it is:

Not sure if this is possible or not - I have not tried it...

But IJN NF might be upgraded to A6M5d-S, transferred to a carrier, resized, and then split. If Akagi is still around and those units are upgradeable/resizeable/splitable, you could have 33 sections of 27 a/c.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

With respect to NF's, and just my opinion, I no longer value them like I did. The issue is simple: you get VERY few groups that can upgrade to NF's and you need a LOT of groups on night CAP. That means you have to use regular fighters in a NF role and my experience is that they do just as well as the specialty planes, and I have a LOT more of them to replace all the losses. Just me, YMMV.

You get more than is easily apparent. They do a LOT better than even FB at night. Just ask Jocke.

Lowpe made a list of all NF groups and how o find them. Here it is:

Not sure if this is possible or not - I have not tried it...

But IJN NF might be upgraded to A6M5d-S, transferred to a carrier, resized, and then split. If Akagi is still around and those units are upgradeable/resizeable/splitable, you could have 33 sections of 27 a/c.

Resizing is always a question and a conversation with your opponent. If you're both okay with it then sure, there are more.

Resizing with NF causes a bit of an issue though in that 4E groups cannot resize, and B-29 groups are smaller than usual, starting gat 8 and growing to 10. If you have an 80 plane NF group flying over Tokyo and Osaka, or several, that would be prohibitive to effective strat bombing from my experience. The main body would get hit, but with a larger group the staying power of the CAP would mean later fragments arriving would get shredded by the numbers.

[witpqs]

Later the B-29 groups do go to 15, but with the number of B-29 groups that arrive versus production and losses it seems impossible to fill out the groups.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Later the B-29 groups do go to 15, but with the number of B-29 groups that arrive versus production and losses it seems impossible to fill out the groups.

Well, you could always just park them and not use them and then they'd fill out the groups. And if were playing a PBEM, I wouldn't complain one bit, I promise. [:'(]

It's not fun to be on the receiving end of those B-29 groups when they attack, trust me.

[John 3rd]

I'm building--for late-war fighters--ALL of the A7 Sam for IJN and working to get to the Frank-r for the army. We're having this conversation in my AAR presently.

On the subject of army bombers I am about to get (March 44) the Peggy with Torp. Cannot wait! My army bombers groups are in good shape so I WANT to have this plane.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I'm building--for late-war fighters--ALL of the A7 Sam for IJN and working to get to the Frank-r for the army. We're having this conversation in my AAR presently.

On the subject of army bombers I am about to get (March 44) the Peggy with Torp. Cannot wait! My army bombers groups are in good shape so I WANT to have this plane.

Trouble s it takes 4 months to train the pilots! [:D]