What's with the low vis games?

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Capt Chris
. This goes along with the True Troop/Rarity settings which limits unit types and quantities based on historical data. Not for nothing, but the Germans didn't JUST bring Tigers to the battlefield.

mhh.. this seems not to work properly. sometimes you get even normal infantry squads forbidden or .30 or .50 cal MG´s for the US. not very realistic if u ask me.

btw another question: how is it possible to set force selection ( computer buy ) to the AI in PBM games. don´t seem to work....

[vahauser]

You shouldn't treat Visibility as simply a Line-of-Sight issue.

The primary function of visibility is to model Limited Intel/Command Control. This is especially true since so many of you play with Command & Control turned OFF.

The main reason that setting Visiblity to 30 hexes or less (I prefer Visibility around 20-28 myself) is to limit players' information. Company and Platoon commanders rarely (never?) concerned themselves with matters happening miles away. And since you are godlike in your ability to look down from on high onto the game map, it makes sense to limit visibility to what company and platoon commanders concerned themselves with.

[Charles2222]

There is a problem, still, if the visi is 18-25. Now most of the battles may fight fair enough with that as a start point, but when you don't even have the possibility of seeing beyond that range you may feel comfortable firing, that can be a problem. Bottom line is I think the summer battles should be:

80 - 1%
70-79 - 3%
60-69 - 6%
50-59 - 20%
40-49 - 25%
30-39 - 20%
20-29 - 15%
10-19 - 6%
0-9 - 4%

Part of the problem with the 18-25 range is that while we might think that 'might' be enough to allow a GE advantage from distance, it's still not enough, because there is a threshold where the GE may wish to engage at the longer ranges, where the opponent may not be be able to fire back at all, or if they do, with no hope of a penetration. The 18-25 range becomes a problem too, where the visi. is low enough where the enemy can be within 10-15 hexes of the GE player in one turn (that is, that they aren't spotted at hex 25, but rather at 15 hex range instead because of the speed of the advance [assuming GE player is on the defensive]) and therefore there's little advantage at that point. Of course the wider and longer the map, the more profound such limited visi. can become.

Another problem with visi. never being over 20-25 (I'm not saying SPWAW is never that way, but for those who would wish it that way I say this) is that the big guns never get to dominate. I'm not a big fan of the 88, or at least it's turned out that way, but it's certainly a gun where you might feel queasy about using it at 15-20 range. In my case I'm so protective about using them, in which I have usually 2 and maybe 4 in a core, that they're limited to firing even one round to maybe 1-in-5 battles. I do just fine using the more mobile smaller guns and basic AFV's instead. Maybe if I was playing a lot more of the latter years it would be a bit different, but even against the superior French tanks I'll regulate them just as much. I can't stand overusing them, to where they blow up everything in sight, but then again if the visi. is quite limited there really isn't that much of a place for them. I can remember the good ol' days when you'd place them on the map at some mid-position of your part of the battlefield and fire them one or two turns and then expect a bombardment and having to move them. Now with the visi. the way it is I wouldn't dream of putting them in such a place. About the only thing apart from gross overuse of them I can think of is to place them at ground level and give them a crack to peer through, thereby limiting fire back at them to that crack. With limited visi. there's no such thing as the 88 outranging anything, because with maybe 95% of the battles being under 40 hexes, most all AFV's can at least direct-fire back at them.

[vahauser]

So what you must do is compromise using the inevitable trade-offs of "game" vs. "reality".

High Visibility settings flagrantly improve a player's intel (and thus his ability to instantly react). Especially with Command & Controll turned OFF. Who needs recon under such conditions? And forget about ambushes with panzerschrecks etc.

Low Visibility settings limit a player's intel to what most of his units can usefully engage at as well as allow for ambushes. Agreed, this is at the expense of a few "long-range" weapons. However, when playing online or PBEM games most people choose Historical National Characteristics. And this means that most experience ratings are going to be from 60-80. And this means that effectively engaging at ranges greater than 30 is not very practical for all but the most exceptional circumstances.

As I stated above, Visiblity is more a function of Limited Intel and Command/Control issues than with the actual performance of the weapons systems themselves. Therefore, when using Historical National Characteristics and with Command/Control turned OFF and playing online or PBEM, I strongly advocate Visibility Settings of 20-28 during day battles.

[tracer]

I like the idea of allowing weapons to engage at distances they were known for, but since VIS and spotting are 'married' in SPWAW I see no way to do this without ruining other (more important, IMO) aspects of the game. By catering to the historic VIS (distance) of these weapons, you create an unworkable and unrealistic situation for almost all others. Well documented events and real-world numbers don't always 'translate' into SPWAW.

As I see it, the 'lo-VIS' crowd's point of contention (and mine!) isn't distance, its spotting. A well thought-out and well executed battle plan, using a combined-arms force, can be nullified by the unrealistic spotting ability that (unfortunately) accompanies a very high VIS setting. That's not to say there aren't special situations where a very high (i.e., >40) VIS setting is justified, such as a scenario that highlights a position's 'commanding view', or a desert battle. When the battle is vs. the AI, personal preference is all the justification needed, but against a human opponent keep in mind that 'all points are negotiable'.

*IMO*, the reason that most PBEM battles are fought in the VIS=15-30 range is because many have concluded that using this 'sweet spot' helps to recapture some of the realism lost thru the VIS-spotting 'marriage'.

Still, 'to each, his own'...and I will argue in favor of that to the point of having a thread 'closed'!

[rbrunsman]

Great discussion so far.

For my part, I play Germans and US with equal frequency so it's not a matter of gaining a advantage for myself. I just like to have variety and a challenge. High vis gives you different challenges. It's not a matter of "reality" for me. It's the challenge.

I'll battle you whether you want a low vis game or a high vis game because I like them all. I play the cards I'm dealt. This is why I prefer to be player #2. I like to see what my opponenet throws at me for the things that are not negotiated; whether it's a longer game than you would expect or a higher or lower vis, etc. I like the rarity on for that reason too. It simply makes you a better player to have to deal with adversity.

My main point was to suggest that everyone should get out of their rut (if they're in one) and accept different battle settings. SPWAW offers so much because of the variety it offers. But, of course, for me, it goes back to SPWAW being a game for me, not a simulation.

*******
On the matter of it being a game and completely off topic: It's a game, but if you are going to "game" me (in the bad sense of the term), I'd like to be aware of that in the buy stage of the battle. I like to think I purchase a balanced force, but if you are going to counter with 20 Mustangs or use HeavyAA in the move and shoot way (or any of a number of obviously iffy tactics), I'd like to know that at the beginning so we don't have any hard feelings. It's just a courtesy unless you are only planning on playing me or, for that matter anyone else you play, once. Some excellent players do not play new people because of the "games" some unscrupulous players pull. And, that's a loss to the whole community.

[Charles2222]

rbrunsman: I play maybe 70% GE, 25% USSR, and maybe 5% GB. I'm not sure about the USSR's early years, but I'm pretty sure GB has a host of big guns to use if it wanted, such as the 25lber, which though not with the 88 accuracy can outrange. Maybe the USSR 76AT can as well. If the visi. is under 30 all the time, the only guns being outranged are the peashooters on the light AFV's. With a longer range it allows most of the medium guns ot be outranged too. If one is playing the earlier war years without running into your medium AFV's getting outranged, any, then you're simply missing out on why anyone would bother to go to a larger gun in the first place. What a feeling of campaigner joy when the tanks rolling out are finally of the armor quality to not only withstand the guns outranging them, but also that their guns are then able to engage them some too. Not only for the 88 sort of gun is this important to simulate, but perhaps more pointedly about pillboxes/fortresses. Ever notice how many of those emplacements get top quality guns before the AFV's? Makes for a much more formidable fortress to have to find ways to dodge it's fire instead of being able to exchange fire with it from the get-go if the visi is so low.

[OV-10Bronco]

I have been a pilot for over 25 years and now teach instrument flight instructors for the USAF, so I have a lot of experience with low vis situations. As already pointed out vis and spotting are related but not the same. When the weather man determines the visibility, in all but very low vis situations, he steps out of the weather shop and looks to see if he can see various objects at known distances; e.g. I can see the tower which is one mile away and just make out the hanger on the other side of the base which is two miles away, so the vis is 2 miles. In my experience visibilties of less than 2 miles (60 hexes) are very rare, even in heavy rain or blowing snow the vis is usually at least 1/2 miles and average day vis is better than 6 miles (196 hexes) even in Europe. This means you can see the forest 6 miles away, it doesn't mean you can see the tank on the forest edge, although you probably could pick up the muzzel flash and smoke after a couple of shots. Could you see the sniper in the bushes 100 yards away after 5 of your buddies are dead? Probably not. Visibility in the game should be like the weatherman determines it, spotting should be based on the objects size, movement, and the size of the muzzel flash. If the vis is 6 miles I should be able to see the tanks moving down the road 6 miles away, but not the squad sneaking though the brush 300 yards away. I don't think the game will be fixed to refect this, so we are stuck working with unrealisticlly low vis.

[OV-10Bronco]

Just thought of it and can't try it cause I'm at work, but what happens if you run the vis up to 200 hexes and the spotting ability way down to like 30%. Will this produce realistic results?

[tracer]

IIRC, the max for the VIS setting is 99