Weapon Breakdowns

m10bob · Post by **m10bob** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:23 pm

Personally I do like the possibility of weapon breakdowns,but i don't think they should be as often as we have seen..As for an entire grunt unit losing their small arms,IT CAN HAPPEN!!(Remember the early days of the original issue "bayonet-barrel" M-16).....????.......

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:57 am

Something about fire-caused immobility fixes...

Ask a tanker about "slipping a track," or changing a tread plate (not sure the proper terminology). Motorcycle breakdowns (except from fire)... um... are kinda' ridiculous. Even in the 30's.

arethusa · Post by **arethusa** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:19 pm

Originally posted by Svennemir

One explanation to the "quick" vehicle immobility repairs: sometimes the tank might be stuck in mud or other terrain "features" - while the crew is still inside they will be able to get free using the tracks. Possibly.

Another explanation could be what the tank was doing at the time it got immobilized.

If the tank was moving at top speed, it's quite possible for the tank to roll right off the track on one side. A repair that would take a considerable length of time to repair. Meanwhile, if a tank was lucky and stopped immediately (say the track link at the drive wheel broke) there might not be much to make the repair since they only had to connect one piece and not string along the entire tread. Or perhaps the hinge-pin of a tread broke and they realized this before moving so it was even easier to fix.

Working on artillery, I once saw the brakes on a 105mm break. The entire gun jumped about 3 feet into the air when it fired. You can bet nobody wanted to try firing that gun again without major repairs and we didn't carry spare brake assemblies out in the field so yes, a breakdown could put a main gun out of action for the entire game.

Another main gun possibility could be something happening to the sights. Fixing broken glass, mirrors and fiddly brass bits isn't that easy to do when you're being fired at and your tank is bouncing across rutted fields.

One additional strange thing I've seen though, is having a motorcycle unit of 10 men immobilized due to breakdown. I can just picture the whole Hell's Angels squad standing around with their beers and broads watching while one guy fixes the chain on his bike. What's with the other 9 men?

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:30 pm

Hmmmmm.........i understand that weapons may break down so that its unable to fix them in combat situation.I even believe it may happen to tank main gun.....BUT: i never believe that 10-men squad`s ALL grenades malfunction:p .Thats most weird.Ofcourse one may not explode but all of them? Jeez....
In my experience none of malfunctioned guns were repaired during whole game and some have been 30+ turns long.
It really pisses me off,especially when its some good tank and its main gun.I have seen breakdowns being repaired several times and quite soon but as i said: i have never seen reapaired weapon.

arethusa · Post by **arethusa** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:31 pm

Originally posted by Belisarius

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs.

Too bad we can't do that in SPWAW. I've often seen a crew bail out of a tank and get away sinc eyour hit ratio on them is low. You know your opponent is going to try to reclaim that tank later in the game but it's covered by too many guns for you to be able to put a unit on it to 'spike' it. So, you have to leave it be and deal with again 10 turns later when it goes live again.

I wish there was a way to destroy an unnoccupied vehicle other than being in the same hex with it but you just can't target them.

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:35 pm

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have question about this: i know that dead tanks were used as target practise but how does HEAT damage tank when not its structure?Does it burn the crew to their death or does its explosion wave knock out the crew?

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:40 pm

Originally posted by arethusa

I wish there was a way to destroy an unnoccupied vehicle other than being in the same hex with it but you just can't target them. [/B]

Actually i wish that my crewmen form my destroyed tank could man enemy`s abandoned tank.Imagine your Tiger crew that has lost its tank and 1 man standing next to empty T-34/85 and say:Sorry dude,we cant fight in Russian tanks.(although germans used some of soviets captured heavy tanks as their own).
Now thats something strange.I prefer dying in tank,shelling enemy and smashing his troops rather than run under heavy fire in the open ground in a small hope:maybe they run out of ammo.

arethusa · Post by **arethusa** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:45 am

Originally posted by Sentry
Actually i wish that my crewmen form my destroyed tank could man enemy`s abandoned tank.Imagine your Tiger crew that has lost its tank and 1 man standing next to empty T-34/85 and say:Sorry dude,we cant fight in Russian tanks.(although germans used some of soviets captured heavy tanks as their own).
Now thats something strange.I prefer dying in tank,shelling enemy and smashing his troops rather than run under heavy fire in the open ground in a small hope:maybe they run out of ammo.

The only problem with doing that is that there might be some language problems in reading the instruments and sights. However, I would think a speedometer would look similar in any language. Or maybe the controls are different enough that it would take some time to get used to them. Sort of like trying to ride an old Triumph MC when you're used to riding a Harley. The clutch, front brakes and I think throttle were reveresed.

But even more annoying IMHO, is when you have say a Tiger crew bail out because their tank is kaput, and they can't climb into another Tiger where the crew got shot by MG. The difference between one tank and another of the same kind should be minor enought that they could run the second tank about as efficiently as they could their original. (or HT, truck, ATG, etc.)

Using another countries vehicle might be difficult without some time but your own should be a snap. Heck, after firing 105mm in real life, I'm pretty sure I could figure out how to use a 75mm ATG pretty quick if there was an enemy tank heading right for me.

arethusa · Post by **arethusa** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:51 am

Originally posted by Sentry
Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs.

I have question about this: i know that dead tanks were used as target practise but how does HEAT damage tank when not its structure?Does it burn the crew to their death or does its explosion wave knock out the crew? [/B][/QUOTE]
IIRC, what HEAT did was knock off a piece of the armour on the inside of the tank. Called 'spaling', it was sort of like the cone-shaped hole you see on the inside of a plate-glass window that a stone has hit. The stone doesn't go through the window but a bit flakes off inside.

At least this is what happened with some AT rifles. The piece then ricocheted around the inside of the tank and the crew were left still sitting in their seats, but looking a little like hamburg when the round finally stopped, if it didn't hit something explosive on the inside of the tank first.

The other possibility is that the HEAT might have had such a concussion that it killed or at least incapacitated the crew. And again it might have set off internal explosions.

SkidLid · Post by **SkidLid** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:27 am

Shaped charge warheads (like the PzFaust series weapons have) also have another, extremly nasty side effect. The "beam" of energy that punches through the armour spreads out inside the tank as a spray of flame and molten armour. This is usually enough to detinate fuel and/or ammo, but if it doesnt, it does horrible things to the crew...

Marek Tucan · Post by **Marek Tucan** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:31 pm

Originally posted by Belisarius
I'll second you on that, Charles.

The Germans had excellent field repair shops (and a truly devoted mechanics corps..). Short of a completely burned out tank, most "destroyed" tanks were operational a few days later, or cannibalized for parts. They went to great lengths recovering disabled tanks, even under fire. Every division had at least one, if not many, tank repair shops.

If this was a practice adopted due to the shortage of new tanks, or just a standard army procedure is beyond my knowledge, but my guess is the former.

Anyway, the English, Russian and U.S. troops all noted the German efficiency and probably adopted their own versions.

Putting extra rounds in a dead tank was, AFAIK, practice on all sides, as HEAT does very little structural damage to a vehicle = easy claimed for repairs.

I believe the Russians were also quite good in fast repairing - at least I've read quite alot of German field repair stations were composed mostly by HIWIS wit a minimum of German crew, because the Russians were able to fix the damaged tanks fater than the german mechanics...

And I've also read that it was quite common that say a T-34 was claimed destroyed but was repaired, re-crewed and back in combat within few hours even in the case of quite serious damage...

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:38 pm

Originally posted by arethusa

Using another countries vehicle might be difficult without some time but your own should be a snap. Heck, after firing 105mm in real life, I'm pretty sure I could figure out how to use a 75mm ATG pretty quick if there was an enemy tank heading right for me. [/B]

Right....i bet u do.And in situation of combat i guess the german tankers figure out quite fast how does T-34 work,cuz if they dont they just die.
And yes....ofcourse the german crew should be able to man atleast empty german tank

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:42 pm

Originally posted by Marek Tucan

And I've also read that it was quite common that say a T-34 was claimed destroyed but was repaired, re-crewed and back in combat within few hours even in the case of quite serious damage... [/B]

The reason for this was that T-34 was a very simple tank.Its parts could be changed very quickly and if correct armor plate was not found: Heck,this 10mm armor from T-60 will do

.
I have even heard that several times when T-34 engine was knocked out it was replaced with truck engine (GAZ-AA).
Now you bet that Russian tankists actually didnt like to use repaired tanks,because they never knew what "modifications" were used.

Griefbringer · Post by **Griefbringer** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:20 pm

Manning abandoned enemy vehicles would be pretty cool, but doing it in RL on field of battle might lead to something nasty called "Friendly Fire" - it is quite darn hard to signal to the rest of the company that the tank is now in your hands in the middle of the battle - thus when the turret starts moving again on that tank, everyone will rather gun it again rather than go and see who is inside.

I think normally the enemy vehicles were captured only after the battle, and then given a new paint job and insignia before being taken again to use.

Sentry · Post by **Sentry** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:47 pm

Originally posted by Griefbringer
[
I think normally the enemy vehicles were captured only after the battle, and then given a new paint job and insignia before being taken again to use. [/B]

Hmmmmmm....maybe.But i guess the tank crew saw tank they damaged and its bailed crew.When tank is remanned and acts strangely i dont think they will open fire.Maybe the germans took flag from their tank and attached it to their new tank (T-34 for instance) so others would see that its under new management.These are my opinions how to use enemy tank during combat situation.I really dont think they were used...