Islands of Destiny: RA 5.0 Japanese Side

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ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I did the screenshot simply to demonstrate the massiveness of what is present. When I first saw the numbers I had the 'what the HE**??!!' reaction then immediately shifted gears reminding myself what time the game has moved to. I keep having to remind myself how deep we are into the game. The scale and scope of what the Allies can do continues to simply amaze me. One can read about it and understand from books but to actually SEE it is staggering.

Does that make sense?

He bombed Batangas with everything he had last turn. There were TWENTY-FOUR separate strikes that hit the troops. Let me provide details on the first 10 Raids:

57 DB 110 Cas
31 DB 84 Cas
111 Liberators/36 B-29/28 2EB 440 Cas
25 DB 53 Cas
15 DB 29 cas
60 Liberators 334 Cas
30 Lib/9 B-29/9 2EB 169 Cas
12 B-29 35 Cas
11 Lib/3 B-29/3 A-20 38 Cas
6 Lib/12 2EB 59 Cas
...fourteen more strikes followed.

When I sent the turn to Dan my simple note was "OK. B-29s on close air ground support??!! Makes sense."

I get what you're trying to say, its just that the game is not reality. Just as the Japanese are flying planes in game that never flew this effectively of in these numbers in the war, the Allies can do things the Allies did not do. It all balances out.

Try playing PDU-OFF Scen 1 stock and then check out what the Allies can do!! [:)]

The one limitation that leads to 4Es being used so much to support ground troops is the inability of the game to show the effectiveness of F/FB in strafing and close support rocket and bomb strikes. This part of the game just isn't viable on a large scale, as it was in the war, so the 4Es take that role.

[John 3rd]

I hear you.

Just had a funny moment. TRIED loading the game and it froze. The fact that it froze and I have to re-start it is worrisome but look at WHERE it froze (considering what we've been talking about):

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I think John is pointing out that there isn't really that much there...which is worrisome.

That is a pretty normal day for plane losses....you bleed and bleed and bleed in mid 44. Which is why I still think your fighter production is low but might barely suffice once the Frank B comes along.

Nothing to be done but be creative in how you use your fighters selling them dearly.[:)]

I truly understand your comments on Fighter production. I THOUGHT the numbers were pretty good. Not now. Have to change that and these convoys of TKs getting thru will help some.

As mentioned in the above Post I just made adjusting my head to the reality of scale and scope is difficult. Getting game thru 1942 is easy. Then 1943 becomes pretty interesting. From 1944 forward is just...wow...

Just 25 waves...that is nothing.[:)] Wait for the daily 20 battleship bombardments added in to the 200 plus waves of bombers and the attack by 2000 tanks and 6K AV of well rested 44 troops. If you don't think that can happen, read my AAR versus Tiemanj.

Be thankful he is using those B29s on ground attack, I can think of a lot of other targets that would really hurt. Personally I liked the Allies using their bombers against my troops, they normally don't die and can recover and I always made sure to have some AA to slow them down. That is the trick, those beasts have high SR so you absolutely can't give them milk runs were their experience climbs and climbs day after day with little to no wear and tear. B29s with 55 exp pilots are manageable, but when they have 90 experience Katy bar the door! But it is really the B24 and B17 when they get within normal range...there are so many, so very many.

Just take a minute while you are doing your turn and take a look at your undefended ports, runways, and industry and resources within 35 hexes of Legaspi or worse any level 5 airfield in China. If your defense is 42 fighters, and top line fighters, you will down a dozen beasts but they will get thru. I can't tell you how many times my CAP held up until that last splinter of 3 B29s came roaring in setting fire and destroying. A good day was the Allies gaining less than 250 victory points in a day, but they were few and far between. I gave up over 60,000 victory points to strategic bombing.

PS: there is a way to turn off the combat reports, so you can basically start the turn and walk away, come back in half hour and it is done or just spam the escape key. They you hotkey the reports back on so the Allies can look at them.

[Lowpe]

Be careful, I don't think that you have the supply to increase your fighter production in any meaningful way and almost certainly in no way that will be safe in three months game time and if memory serves your engine pools are pitiful meaning you would have to increase both.

What are you making at Harbin? I think that might be the safest factory you have but I suspect might be vulnerable from China and is of course worthless without engines.

The Allies can hit a lot of the HI from Luzon. Even worse if they sweep from Okinawa or any of those Japanese Islands.

Find a built up base in the HI, something spoilage proof and with little or no reason to be bombed. Send General HQ there and set it to stockpile your supplies. Keep minimal supplies at bases likely to be bombed. Otherwise your supplies will burn.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Need thoughts. Is this appropriate? Should I say something? Am at a loss...

Expect the Allies to make a bunch of these AF9 bases on Luzon and points closer to the home islands. That's 'what they do'. The fact that he's exploited his foothold on Luzon to produce one of these is no surprise at all. It's expected really.

I'm disappointed in the lack of imagination that many Allied players adopt in the late war. They 'brute force' the game engine and game in general because they can. Rather than create a series of interlocking bases that make sense, they put all their marbles in one basket because it's easier and-oh by the way-exploits the game engine somewhat.

As mentioned previously anything >250 AV support = 1.0x10^6 AV support. So the ground crew can support operations on 1000 mixed engine airframes, including 4EBs with impunity. As NYGiants pointed out, the game allows for an unlimited number of planes and doubled aviation support values with AF9 size expansion.

You'll get apologists saying in "X square miles you can have Y number of airplanes" with no problem, but I think that's a non-sequitor. The Allies did not/could not build hyperfunctional bases for thousands of airplanes on recently captured ground in the war. How long did that take them in the game? 30 days? 45 days?

How long did it take-with truly Herculean engineering effort-to transform Tinian into a "size 7" airfield? Marines invaded 24 July 1944. 15,000 engineers took until February-March 1945 to build the airfield. So that's 7 months. The transformation was remarkable, but it wasn't on a shoestring. And it wasn't overnight.

And it wasn't a singular punctate focus-the Allied war planners were smart enough to similarly transform Saipan and Guam into comparable-sized supporting redundant clusters of airfields. Has there been any effort to so enlarge any of the other myriad bases he's taken throughout the central PI? I doubt it.

I also think it's kind of lazy thinking, but the 'brute force' mechanics of so many Allied players in the mid-late war seems to be the way to go I guess. Why bother maneuvering or making things realistic when the game lets you troll the shallow narrow seas of the Philippines with an Allied carrier death star, hundreds of surface combatants, hundreds of supply ships and thousands of airplanes? All in the same hex. At the same time.

So, to summarize, I think it's unrealistic in engineer ability, game mechanics and geographic focus. It's also unrealistic in terms of air support. It's lazy thinking and lazy gameplay too.

All of this is permissible within the code. Just like it's OK to use B-29s wantonly in a close air support role, all of this is 'OK' by the game engine. But it's not part of the game that's interesting to me. It rubs up against the 'gamey' side of things too much for my taste.

But you got your fun and games in your OOB, John. Now Dan gets to have his fun and games too for the next several months. Suck it up, big guy. Improvise, adapt and overcome. Or at least soldier on and try to counterpunch when you can. [8D]

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ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I hear you.

Just had a funny moment. TRIED loading the game and it froze. The fact that it froze and I have to re-start it is worrisome but look at WHERE it froze (considering what we've been talking about):

This happens more and more in late game ... right in that spot during replay!! [:D]

[John 3rd]

I am soldiering on. Feel like a total ROOKIE right now. This is a rather humbling experience and I am trying to adapt to it. Am adding to my 'lessons learned' list planning for the whole massive scale and scope of Allied expansion in 1944. Didn't expand the economy ENOUGH in 1943 for airframes and engines. Stupid really...

I did a relatively minor addition to Frank production in both airframes and engines. We'll see if the economy can handle it.

The bright side has these TK TF making it into port. Number 2 just arrived with #3 having just passed Cam Rahn Bay. The 4th TK TF will depart Singapore in 2-3 days.

He is landing at Miri with an Aussie ID. It took terrible losses upon landing so I know it isn't prepped.

Kido Butai arrived at Daito Shoto and made its presence known obliquely by turning on Judy and Jills to ASW. Scored NINE hits in one turn. Am hoping to make him look over his shoulder...

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Be careful, I don't think that you have the supply to increase your fighter production in any meaningful way and almost certainly in no way that will be safe in three months game time and if memory serves your engine pools are pitiful meaning you would have to increase both.

What are you making at Harbin? I think that might be the safest factory you have but I suspect might be vulnerable from China and is of course worthless without engines.

The Allies can hit a lot of the HI from Luzon. Even worse if they sweep from Okinawa or any of those Japanese Islands.

Find a built up base in the HI, something spoilage proof and with little or no reason to be bombed. Send General HQ there and set it to stockpile your supplies. Keep minimal supplies at bases likely to be bombed. Otherwise your supplies will burn.

Great advice and next turn I will begin that process.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Need thoughts. Is this appropriate? Should I say something? Am at a loss...

Expect the Allies to make a bunch of these AF9 bases on Luzon and points closer to the home islands. That's 'what they do'. The fact that he's exploited his foothold on Luzon to produce one of these is no surprise at all. It's expected really.

I'm disappointed in the lack of imagination that many Allied players adopt in the late war. They 'brute force' the game engine and game in general because they can. Rather than create a series of interlocking bases that make sense, they put all their marbles in one basket because it's easier and-oh by the way-exploits the game engine somewhat.

As mentioned previously anything >250 AV support = 1.0x10^6 AV support. So the ground crew can support operations on 1000 mixed engine airframes, including 4EBs with impunity. As NYGiants pointed out, the game allows for an unlimited number of planes and doubled aviation support values with AF9 size expansion.

You'll get apologists saying in "X square miles you can have Y number of airplanes" with no problem, but I think that's a non-sequitor. The Allies did not/could not build hyperfunctional bases for thousands of airplanes on recently captured ground in the war. How long did that take them in the game? 30 days? 45 days?

How long did it take-with truly Herculean engineering effort-to transform Tinian into a "size 7" airfield? Marines invaded 24 July 1944. 15,000 engineers took until February-March 1945 to build the airfield. So that's 7 months. The transformation was remarkable, but it wasn't on a shoestring. And it wasn't overnight.

And it wasn't a singular punctate focus-the Allied war planners were smart enough to similarly transform Saipan and Guam into comparable-sized supporting redundant clusters of airfields. Has there been any effort to so enlarge any of the other myriad bases he's taken throughout the central PI? I doubt it.

I also think it's kind of lazy thinking, but the 'brute force' mechanics of so many Allied players in the mid-late war seems to be the way to go I guess. Why bother maneuvering or making things realistic when the game lets you troll the shallow narrow seas of the Philippines with an Allied carrier death star, hundreds of surface combatants, hundreds of supply ships and thousands of airplanes? All in the same hex. At the same time.

So, to summarize, I think it's unrealistic in engineer ability, game mechanics and geographic focus. It's also unrealistic in terms of air support. It's lazy thinking and lazy gameplay too.

All of this is permissible within the code. Just like it's OK to use B-29s wantonly in a close air support role, all of this is 'OK' by the game engine. But it's not part of the game that's interesting to me. It rubs up against the 'gamey' side of things too much for my taste.

But you got your fun and games in your OOB, John. Now Dan gets to have his fun and games too for the next several months. Suck it up, big guy. Improvise, adapt and overcome. Or at least soldier on and try to counterpunch when you can. [8D]

Damn Chickenboy. You are an eloquent and good human being.

[Chickenboy]

While it's nice that you're able to still get TK TFs back to the home islands, what's your fuel and oil status like on Java and at Palembang specifically? That Palembang-Singapore route will be increasingly difficult to keep open now that he's encircling Borneo with that left hook to Miri.

I hope you're taking the hint that the Celebes, southern PI, Mindanao and southern DEI (e.g., Timor) are either strategically meaningless or in danger of encirclement at this time. Are you getting your troops out via your shrinking lifeline or are you going to let them get well and truly cut off?

[John 3rd]

In some ways I cannot help but grin that those B-29 are being used that way.

Batangas fell to about 1,000,000+ bombers hitting it for the third straight day and then a Shock Attack by the Allied troops (7-1 result versus 4 Japanese ID). Heck. He really even need those troops. RIGHT? Airpower alone can win the war.

[John 3rd]

For those of you who have gone this deep into the game, I am truly thankful for the advice, aid, and comfort (holding me as I want to retreat into the corner of the basement and suck my thumb while in a little fetal ball trying to sing Clementine) during these trying times.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

For those of you who have gone this deep into the game, I am truly thankful for the advice, aid, and comfort (holding me as I want to retreat into the corner of the basement and suck my thumb while in a little fetal ball trying to sing Clementine) during these trying times.

They're going to get even more trying, mate. [8D]

What are your thoughts on the use of KB sooner rather than later? I get the feeling that they will soon be outdated / outmoded / antiquated in terms of Dan's overall focus for the war.

If he can-by hook or by crook-get a bunch of airbases on Luzon, maybe the coastal South China Sea (Indochina and / or Hainan and / or Hong Kong and / or Formosa), he'll simply 'brute force' his firebombing campaign onto your industry for the late war effect.

How would you feel if Dan's final several months of the game really don't focus on much more land grabbing or on naval combat, but on Oil/refinery/manpower/HI/LI strategic bombing? Would you feel as though you accomplished your goals in the game or would you feel somewhat 'cheated' by not having a recent naval showdown that is sufficiently meaningful? I suspect that playing the losing hand of constantly trying to guess your opponent's next strategic bombing focus will be wearing on you. What do you think?

[Lowpe]

You can stand up to that air power with just ground troops. You need to understand how they work and target.

First off you need x2 or x3 or x4 terrain. You need prep, all three levels of HQ prep. For say Manila your Command HQ could be in Formosa if you have a corp HQ in or adjacent to Manila. Could be as far as 18 hexes away.

You need AA, ENG, and in general lots and lots of units of all types so the attacks fragments across many units. Having a safe place for the units to recover in is nice too and would let you cycle units in and out constantly.

Clark, Bataan, Manila make for a great hedgehog defense. Bataan with cd guns prevents shore bombardments of Manila. That is three runways to close, and as long as you have supply you still can make raids using Jakes no matter what the damage, or spring a cap trap with Rex. And if he bypasses, you have a Frances base that can make strikes deep into his line of supply.

You might even be able to lure his surface groups into Bataan's CD guns by using sacrificial task forces, MTBs etc.

So many fun things you can do!

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I hear you.

Just had a funny moment. TRIED loading the game and it froze. The fact that it froze and I have to re-start it is worrisome but look at WHERE it froze (considering what we've been talking about):

This happens more and more in late game ... right in that spot during replay!! [:D]

For a while a couple of years ago I was relegated to gaming on an old garage back up platform that only had a 2 gig processor and 1 gig of ram.
The 'calculating air superiority" phase would take 6-8 minutes to complete and I would typically go for a cup of coffee while I waited.

Since I built the behemoth 4.7 gig platform with 32 gigs of ram the phase completes in the blink of an eye. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

John,

I know this part of the game kind of sucks as the Japanese player. But all JFBs out there can learn from your experiences. If you help us, you can probably learn quite a bit as well. But it will be humiliating.

There's a natural response to *not* post about those things that are going poorly for you in the war. I get that. In the few limited AARs I've done, it actually hurts to talk about that stuff. I've felt physically nauseous before after a particularly bad set of turns. Getting whupped sucks. I think you probably know of which I speak.

But by not updating your readers on the current state of affairs throughout the Empire, by instead focusing on meaningless moral victory pinpricks, it makes it difficult for your readers. It's difficult for us to know what's going on where and why. It's difficult for us to learn from your late war experiences. It's difficult for us to see what we would do or would have done differently. It's difficult for us to help you too.

As a fellow dyed-in-the-wool JFB, I want to know some of the important aspects of your war too. The moral victories are a great accent, but I will feel much more engaged and informed if you help focus on the big picture more.

I know you're getting hammered in the central and northern PI and Southern DEI. Now Borneo is soon to be enveloped. But other than a rare post about your strategic position, it's difficult to see where you have sufficient reserves versus insufficient strength versus too many troops languishing in a cut-off zone.

My specific questions:

1. Is Puerto Princessa / Palawan still yours? I can't tell.

2. What do you think the significance of Panay's fall will be?

3. Are there other central PI bases that have recently fallen?

4. With the fall of Miri and N. Borneo, what do you think he will do as a follow-up? How are you positioning your forces to support your defensive response? Where will your defensive troops be coming from?

5. What are your defensive capabilities on Hainan, Formosa, CRB, Haiphong and Hong Kong? Where will reinforcement to these places (if needed) come from?

6. Do you have an actionable plan to extricate troops from theaters that are now-by process of events in the game-meaningless? I think (but don't know because of lack of information) that includes the Solomons, Rabaul, Truk, Southern DEI, Java, the Andaman islands, and Southern Borneo.

As always, thank you for your AAR. I really enjoy reading it and contributing. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

A combat report of your recent losing ground battle on Luzon would be appreciated as well. Are those 4 IDs of yours shattered or can they be rebuilt at Manila?

[John 3rd]

I can guarantee that they won't get time to rebuild in Manila. Two are shattered. The other pair are OK. I have another ID training down to Manila tomorrow and will then set itself for the coming attack. My bet is that the Allies will be knocking on Manila's Lvl-5 Forts within 3 days.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

John,

I know this part of the game kind of sucks as the Japanese player. But all JFBs out there can learn from your experiences. If you help us, you can probably learn quite a bit as well. But it will be humiliating.

There's a natural response to *not* post about those things that are going poorly for you in the war. I get that. In the few limited AARs I've done, it actually hurts to talk about that stuff. I've felt physically nauseous before after a particularly bad set of turns. Getting whupped sucks. I think you probably know of which I speak.

But by not updating your readers on the current state of affairs throughout the Empire, by instead focusing on meaningless moral victory pinpricks, it makes it difficult for your readers. It's difficult for us to know what's going on where and why. It's difficult for us to learn from your late war experiences. It's difficult for us to see what we would do or would have done differently. It's difficult for us to help you too.

As a fellow dyed-in-the-wool JFB, I want to know some of the important aspects of your war too. The moral victories are a great accent, but I will feel much more engaged and informed if you help focus on the big picture more.

I know you're getting hammered in the central and northern PI and Southern DEI. Now Borneo is soon to be enveloped. But other than a rare post about your strategic position, it's difficult to see where you have sufficient reserves versus insufficient strength versus too many troops languishing in a cut-off zone.

My specific questions:

1. Is Puerto Princessa / Palawan still yours? I can't tell.

2. What do you think the significance of Panay's fall will be?

3. Are there other central PI bases that have recently fallen?

4. With the fall of Miri and N. Borneo, what do you think he will do as a follow-up? How are you positioning your forces to support your defensive response? Where will your defensive troops be coming from?

5. What are your defensive capabilities on Hainan, Formosa, CRB, Haiphong and Hong Kong? Where will reinforcement to these places (if needed) come from?

6. Do you have an actionable plan to extricate troops from theaters that are now-by process of events in the game-meaningless? I think (but don't know because of lack of information) that includes the Solomons, Rabaul, Truk, Southern DEI, Java, the Andaman islands, and Southern Borneo.

As always, thank you for your AAR. I really enjoy reading it and contributing. [:)]

Will answer this point-by-point in detail tonight/tomorrow morning. Pends on home and work...

EDIT: There is no pride/hubris here. As said earlier today I feel like an absolute rookie and will own up to any BS I currently have to.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I did the screenshot simply to demonstrate the massiveness of what is present. When I first saw the numbers I had the 'what the HE**??!!' reaction then immediately shifted gears reminding myself what time the game has moved to. I keep having to remind myself how deep we are into the game. The scale and scope of what the Allies can do continues to simply amaze me. One can read about it and understand from books but to actually SEE it is staggering.

Does that make sense?

He bombed Batangas with everything he had last turn. There were TWENTY-FOUR separate strikes that hit the troops. Let me provide details on the first 10 Raids:

57 DB 110 Cas
31 DB 84 Cas
111 Liberators/36 B-29/28 2EB 440 Cas
25 DB 53 Cas
15 DB 29 cas
60 Liberators 334 Cas
30 Lib/9 B-29/9 2EB 169 Cas
12 B-29 35 Cas
11 Lib/3 B-29/3 A-20 38 Cas
6 Lib/12 2EB 59 Cas
...fourteen more strikes followed.

When I sent the turn to Dan my simple note was "OK. B-29s on close air ground support??!! Makes sense."

I get what you're trying to say, its just that the game is not reality. Just as the Japanese are flying planes in game that never flew this effectively of in these numbers in the war, the Allies can do things the Allies did not do. It all balances out.

Try playing PDU-OFF Scen 1 stock and then check out what the Allies can do!! [:)]

The one limitation that leads to 4Es being used so much to support ground troops is the inability of the game to show the effectiveness of F/FB in strafing and close support rocket and bomb strikes. This part of the game just isn't viable on a large scale, as it was in the war, so the 4Es take that role.

This is an excellent point. I never used fighters in ground attacks in my last campaign even in 1945 as Japanese fighters are overpowered and remained in enough numbers to pose a threat to low flying fighters except in rear areas. Even in late 44 the Allies can't afford to lose 100 fighters for a few days in sustained combat. My current campaign is just turning through 1/44 and I have "zero" aircraft (fighters or bombers) in my pools. That is the way the Allies roll. Fighters are reserved for fighting enemy fighters and the bombers have to carry all of the ground support role. In the real war Allied fighters were doing a lot of ground support by 44.

I will admit that I never considered using B29s in ground support role. That is just a bit tacky for me. In our current campaign we have a HR prohibiting 4Es from attacking ground units in non-base. clear terrain hexes. That helps Japan a bit but quite frankly, by 1944 you don't want to be fighting in clear terrain at all.