Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

Post Reply
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

I disagree with warspite1. Resources tell us that Britain might have not lost their possessions in Asia even if it did not attacked German occupied France.
Without Italy, D-Day would be more than one year earlier. More probably Spring,Summer 43. Depending how things are going in Asia.
Even possible that invasion of France was done from North and South simultaneously. Or the Southern invasion was done trough Balkans directly to the oil fields of Romenia.
warspite1

Sorry Dili I didn't understand the first sentence.

As for an earlier D-Day I disagree wholeheartedly - and funnily enough so does O'Hara in Torch. Looking at Italy, looking at French North Africa, I believe that a 1943 and certainly a 1942(!) invasion would have been disaster for the Allies. Huzzah! another discussion topic [:)]

Are you sure there was enough invasion shipping for simultaneous landings? Also are the Allies going to invade Greece to get to Romania?
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
No idea how he worked out the half - is he referring to a time when there was less than one or is he referring to Eagle as a half? I don't know, but if O'Hara is happy to call Eagle a carrier - evoking images of Ark Royal or Enterprise or Shokaku - then fine, but it doesn't really add value to the conversation. Or maybe he is thinking of Argus...... He mentions 16 cruisers but doesn't mention that the Italians had 8-inch ships with generally better speed.

I would have thought when he stated "one and a half carriers on average", it just means the average during the 3 year period varied between one and two
carriers operating in the area he is describing.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: warspite1
No idea how he worked out the half - is he referring to a time when there was less than one or is he referring to Eagle as a half? I don't know, but if O'Hara is happy to call Eagle a carrier - evoking images of Ark Royal or Enterprise or Shokaku - then fine, but it doesn't really add value to the conversation. Or maybe he is thinking of Argus...... He mentions 16 cruisers but doesn't mention that the Italians had 8-inch ships with generally better speed.

I would have thought when he stated "one and a half carriers on average", it just means the average during the 3 year period varied between one and two
carriers operating in the area he is describing.
warspite1

And if that is the case then calling poor old Eagle a carrier is erm.....optimistic [;)].
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 20773
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Dili

I disagree with warspite1. Resources tell us that Britain might have not lost their possessions in Asia even if it did not attacked German occupied France.
Without Italy, D-Day would be more than one year earlier. More probably Spring,Summer 43. Depending how things are going in Asia.
Even possible that invasion of France was done from North and South simultaneously. Or the Southern invasion was done trough Balkans directly to the oil fields of Romenia.
warspite1

Sorry Dili I didn't understand the first sentence.

As for an earlier D-Day I disagree wholeheartedly - and funnily enough so does O'Hara in Torch. Looking at Italy, looking at French North Africa, I believe that a 1943 and certainly a 1942(!) invasion would have been disaster for the Allies. Huzzah! another discussion topic [:)]

Are you sure there was enough invasion shipping for simultaneous landings? Also are the Allies going to invade Greece to get to Romania?
Invading any mountainous country is going to cost a lot of casualties because the enemy can use the defensive terrain to make you pay, then withdraw to a new line when the position becomes untenable. Certainly that happened in Italy. It would take a long time to get to Romania from Greece.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: warspite1
No idea how he worked out the half - is he referring to a time when there was less than one or is he referring to Eagle as a half? I don't know, but if O'Hara is happy to call Eagle a carrier - evoking images of Ark Royal or Enterprise or Shokaku - then fine, but it doesn't really add value to the conversation. Or maybe he is thinking of Argus...... He mentions 16 cruisers but doesn't mention that the Italians had 8-inch ships with generally better speed.

I would have thought when he stated "one and a half carriers on average", it just means the average during the 3 year period varied between one and two
carriers operating in the area he is describing.
warspite1

And if that is the case then calling poor old Eagle a carrier is erm.....optimistic [;)].
If the Eagle is forced to make up those low numbers, don't blame the author, blame the attacks by the axis that kept reducing the number of available RN fleet carriers.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
anarchyintheuk
Posts: 3958
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Actually, O"Hara kinda does....(pages 210-211)

"During those three years Great Britain deployed a great portion of its military strength in the Mediterranean and Middle East. The Royal Navy
maintained, on the average, four battleships, one and a half carriers, and sixteen cruisers in the Mediterranean and Red seas (including Gibraltar).
The RAF based between a quarter to a third of its strength there while fifteen British and Empire divisions— generally the best available— fought
in the Mediterranean and Middle East."

It's not that hard to do a comparison with his RN and Army numbers vs the overall British figures for the period.

Assuming that those numbers are correct, I'm still not seeing a 'main effort' here. Semantics maybe.

I would like to see the basis for what constitute 1/3-1/4 of the RAF and 15 British and Empire divisions.

Oops. Probably should just have waited until I saw warspite1's post #120.
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Dili

I disagree with warspite1. Resources tell us that Britain might have not lost their possessions in Asia even if it did not attacked German occupied France.
Without Italy, D-Day would be more than one year earlier. More probably Spring,Summer 43. Depending how things are going in Asia.
Even possible that invasion of France was done from North and South simultaneously. Or the Southern invasion was done trough Balkans directly to the oil fields of Romenia.
warspite1

Sorry Dili I didn't understand the first sentence.

As for an earlier D-Day I disagree wholeheartedly - and funnily enough so does O'Hara in Torch. Looking at Italy, looking at French North Africa, I believe that a 1943 and certainly a 1942(!) invasion would have been disaster for the Allies. Huzzah! another discussion topic [:)]

Are you sure there was enough invasion shipping for simultaneous landings? Also are the Allies going to invade Greece to get to Romania?

I meant that British might not have lost Asian possessions if they decided to not make an earlier D-day.

-------

The biggest and more extensive world ever naval invasion was Husky Sicily, not D-Day Normandy. That was summer 1943 and by 1943 there wasn't much of Atlantic wall...neither Sudwall.

By 1943 Britain would have probably more than 4000 aircraft, now they could have just spend part of that resources in more 4 engine bombers but they would be much stronger, since they would have not to build crap stuff like Blenheims, Hurricanes, 2pdr just because they needed to have something in frontline.
The extensive shipbuilding by British was much due to being in Mediterranean combat.

If Britain is not in Med except for a cover force, then they have much more ships - many not sunk -, they have much more aircraft, tanks, they would have spent much less fuel and send merchants around the cape that needed replacing and shipyard time. How many divisions the British lost /rebuild in Med? Those lost in Greece, those lost fighting in NA, 7 Armored was probably rebuild twice, thousands of tanks lost not comparable to those lost by Germany.

So to recap without Med the British need much less resources in land combat and much less resources in shipbuilding. Air resources could be employed in a more dedicated manner and not just the need to fill the frontline.
With that extra resources Churchill could go fully in Asian colonies: which means will follow more or less US resources spending: more aero-naval team, or if a Europe first strategy which is more probable with full continental invasion by 1943, then resources would be more directed to the aero-land team since so many ships are not necesaary, better(earlier) tanks and guns, better(earlier) attack aircraft.

Edit:
Instead the Germans don't need to do any major change in industrial resource allocation.





User avatar
btd64
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:48 am
Location: Lancaster, OHIO

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by btd64 »

North Africa was some what about the suez canal. If it was lost, the British in Asia would of had big problems....GP
IntelUltra7 16cores, 32gb ram, NvidiaGeForceRTX 2050
DW2-Alpha/Beta Tester
WIS Manual Team Lead & Beta Support Team

"Do everything you ask of those you command" Gen. George S. Patton
WiS Discord channel coming soon....
User avatar
Chickenboy
Posts: 24648
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Dili
The biggest and more extensive world ever naval invasion was Husky Sicily, not D-Day Normandy.

Wasn't Okinawa bigger than either?

ETA: I think it depends on how one defines "bigger". Husky apparently involved the most men landed in amphibious attack.

Iceberg landed as many as D-Day, but had a much larger support cast of ships involved, particularly combatants. 18 BBs, 36 CV/CVL/CVEs, 33 Cruisers, and 1500 naval aircraft thrown in to boot.
Image
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Buckrock



I would have thought when he stated "one and a half carriers on average", it just means the average during the 3 year period varied between one and two
carriers operating in the area he is describing.
warspite1

And if that is the case then calling poor old Eagle a carrier is erm.....optimistic [;)].
If the Eagle is forced to make up those low numbers, don't blame the author, blame the attacks by the axis that kept reducing the number of available RN fleet carriers.
warspite1

That misses the point though, although the second part of your point actually reinforces what I have been saying.

Firstly, I do blame the author because I believe he is being disingenuous. An extreme example to prove a point would be:

Even after the loss of Bismarck, the Germans had five battleships. Why not use them to make a sortie into the North Atlantic? Okay two of the "battleships" were pre-dreadnoughts, but hey, by the strict definition...

As to the second part of your comment, remember this thread is about Italian performance and I don't think it fair to judge Italian performance based on what the Germans achieved. As I say, Germany made Italy look better than her actual performance warrants - and that Italy then failed to take advantage. Because of the parlous state of the RN (particularly in respect of the size of commitments she faced) there was only one modern carrier (Ark Royal) and she was supported by two reasonably useful ships - (Glorious and Courageous). Both of the later were lost early in the war and before Italy came onto the scene thanks to the German navy.

What Italy faced therefore in the early days in the Eastern Mediterranean was a 'carrier' that struggled to manage 22 knots and that could carry 18 Swordfish and 3 Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters. When sailing into Axis infested skies that is not exactly going to provide much in the way of CAP is it? Thereafter? Illustrious was badly damaged by the Germans, Ark Royal was sunk by the Germans, Formidable was badly damaged by the Germans, Indomitable was badly damaged by the Germans, and Eagle was sunk by the Germans.... I believe it was Italian air that damaged Victorious.

So when describing the RN representation in the Med, if one is trying to provide a proper analysis of the situation, a simple caveat would not have gone amiss. As said previously, he is happy to mention quality when he talks about the army (though this is subjective) but does not bring quality into it when talking about ships or aircraft.

Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Dili

I disagree with warspite1. Resources tell us that Britain might have not lost their possessions in Asia even if it did not attacked German occupied France.
Without Italy, D-Day would be more than one year earlier. More probably Spring,Summer 43. Depending how things are going in Asia.
Even possible that invasion of France was done from North and South simultaneously. Or the Southern invasion was done trough Balkans directly to the oil fields of Romenia.
warspite1

Sorry Dili I didn't understand the first sentence.

As for an earlier D-Day I disagree wholeheartedly - and funnily enough so does O'Hara in Torch. Looking at Italy, looking at French North Africa, I believe that a 1943 and certainly a 1942(!) invasion would have been disaster for the Allies. Huzzah! another discussion topic [:)]

Are you sure there was enough invasion shipping for simultaneous landings? Also are the Allies going to invade Greece to get to Romania?

I meant that British might not have lost Asian possessions if they decided to not make an earlier D-day.

-------

The biggest and more extensive world ever naval invasion was Husky Sicily, not D-Day Normandy. That was summer 1943 and by 1943 there wasn't much of Atlantic wall...neither Sudwall.

By 1943 Britain would have probably more than 4000 aircraft, now they could have just spend part of that resources in more 4 engine bombers but they would be much stronger, since they would have not to build crap stuff like Blenheims, Hurricanes, 2pdr just because they needed to have something in frontline.
The extensive shipbuilding by British was much due to being in Mediterranean combat.

If Britain is not in Med except for a cover force, then they have much more ships - many not sunk -, they have much more aircraft, tanks, they would have spent much less fuel and send merchants around the cape that needed replacing and shipyard time. How many divisions the British lost /rebuild in Med? Those lost in Greece, those lost fighting in NA, 7 Armored was probably rebuild twice, thousands of tanks lost not comparable to those lost by Germany.

So to recap without Med the British need much less resources in land combat and much less resources in shipbuilding. Air resources could be employed in a more dedicated manner and not just the need to fill the frontline.
With that extra resources Churchill could go fully in Asian colonies: which means will follow more or less US resources spending: more aero-naval team, or if a Europe first strategy which is more probable with full continental invasion by 1943, then resources would be more directed to the aero-land team since so many ships are not necesaary, better(earlier) tanks and guns, better(earlier) attack aircraft.

Edit:
Instead the Germans don't need to do any major change in industrial resource allocation.
warspite1

Sorry Dili I am confused. I think the point you are trying to make is in reaction to my post 121? But then you seem to be suggesting that Italy is not in the war and what would happen then? If that is the scenario then that is a completely different subject as a ton of events will change.

Clearly Britain’s nightmare scenario was war with all three Axis powers (funnily enough I am reading at the moment about British naval strategic thinking in the build up to the war) and so clearly if one is to take one of those Axis enemies out of the equation, then potentially a whole lot may pan out differently.

It’s an interesting scenario but doesn’t help with the subject of Italian performance in WWII.

Re Britain being able to ‘more or less follow US resources spending’. I am not an economist but I don’t see how that works given the size of the respective economies and the fact that the British were bust by 1941.

Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: General Patton

North Africa was some what about the suez canal. If it was lost, the British in Asia would of had big problems....GP
warspite1

Interesting but not according to the book I am reading at the moment. What the author is saying is that before the war the British accepted that with Italy in the war the Mediterranean would be closed. If the Med is closed, the importance of Suez diminishes as the route round South Africa will have to be used instead.

The initial view was that Britain's interests were Britain and the Far East inc. India, Australia, New Zealand, Malaya, Burma etc (it was accepted that the defence of Hong Kong and Britain's commercial interests in China could not be defended once Japan attacked in 1937).

The view was that the Mediterranean/Middle East was not that important - oil could be got from elsewhere and even France's reliance on Middle Eastern oil was not an issue for the same reason. So long as the Indian Ocean could be guarded then the Med did not need defending.

Britain would therefore send a fleet to the Far East but not the Med. This thinking all started to change once Italy became troublesome over Abysinnia. This is a meaty book and I am still struggling to understand why that change in thinking took hold given the lack of ships available to defend everything....

Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

And if that is the case then calling poor old Eagle a carrier is erm.....optimistic [;)].
If the Eagle is forced to make up those low numbers, don't blame the author, blame the attacks by the axis that kept reducing the number of available RN fleet carriers.
warspite1

That misses the point though, although the second part of your point actually reinforces what I have been saying.

Firstly, I do blame the author because I believe he is being disingenuous. An extreme example to prove a point would be:

Even after the loss of Bismarck, the Germans had five battleships. Why not use them to make a sortie into the North Atlantic? Okay two of the "battleships" were pre-dreadnoughts, but hey, by the strict definition...

As to the second part of your comment, remember this thread is about Italian performance and I don't think it fair to judge Italian performance based on what the Germans achieved. As I say, Germany made Italy look better than her actual performance warrants - and that Italy then failed to take advantage. Because of the parlous state of the RN (particularly in respect of the size of commitments she faced) there was only one modern carrier (Ark Royal) and she was supported by two reasonably useful ships - (Glorious and Courageous). Both of the later were lost early in the war and before Italy came onto the scene thanks to the German navy.

What Italy faced therefore in the early days in the Eastern Mediterranean was a 'carrier' that struggled to manage 22 knots and that could carry 18 Swordfish and 3 Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters. When sailing into Axis infested skies that is not exactly going to provide much in the way of CAP is it? Thereafter? Illustrious was badly damaged by the Germans, Ark Royal was sunk by the Germans, Formidable was badly damaged by the Germans, Indomitable was badly damaged by the Germans, and Eagle was sunk by the Germans.... I believe it was Italian air that damaged Victorious.

So when describing the RN representation in the Med, if one is trying to provide a proper analysis of the situation, a simple caveat would not have gone amiss. As said previously, he is happy to mention quality when he talks about the army (though this is subjective) but does not bring quality into it when talking about ships or aircraft.

The only point I was addressing was in relation to the author's low "average" carrier numbers and what might be behind them. Your bias issue with the author is a different matter entirely.[:)]
This was the only sig line I could think of.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Actually, O"Hara kinda does....(pages 210-211)

"During those three years Great Britain deployed a great portion of its military strength in the Mediterranean and Middle East. The Royal Navy
maintained, on the average, four battleships, one and a half carriers, and sixteen cruisers in the Mediterranean and Red seas (including Gibraltar).
The RAF based between a quarter to a third of its strength there while fifteen British and Empire divisions— generally the best available— fought
in the Mediterranean and Middle East."

It's not that hard to do a comparison with his RN and Army numbers vs the overall British figures for the period.

I would like to see the basis for what constitute 1/3-1/4 of the RAF and 15 British and Empire divisions.
warspite1

Quite. I don't think there were 15 CW divisions at El-Alamein so I've no idea where that comes from to be honest.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

Indomitable was torpedo damaged by Italians.

Yes my point is if Italy is not in the War that is one way to see if the German investment in Med was worthwhile or not.
anarchyintheuk
Posts: 3958
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by anarchyintheuk »

I'm having a hard time coming up w/ 15 divs that in the Med that were there because of Italy's involvement in 40-41.

I would have no problem ascribing to Italy those lcus added to Gibraltar and Malta garrisons post Italy's dow, forces involved in Ethiopia/Greece/Crete, and the WDF/8th army. Re: the 8th, I think it's fair to say that a significant portion of their increased oob was due to the AK.

The remaining divs in theater I would classify them as pre-existing Imperial commitments having little, if anything, to do with Italy's actions.

Still pretty far from 15 divs. Still sounds like a book I should pickup. I don't have nearly enough on the Med.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Indomitable was torpedo damaged by Italians.

Yes my point is if Italy is not in the War that is one way to see if the German investment in Med was worthwhile or not.
warspite1

Sorry I was talking about Indomitable during Pedestal - during which she was damaged by German aircraft. Yes she was torpedoed by the Italians in 1943 too.

Separate to this discussion, I think if Italy never joins the war then so much potentially changes - interesting scenario to look into. I will give it some thought.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
JeffroK
Posts: 6435
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by JeffroK »

At 2nd Alamein I have 10 Divisions and 4 Bde Groups

1,7 & 10 Armoured
44(-), 50(-) & 51 British Infantry
9Aus, 2NZ, 1SA, 4Ind Infantry Bdes
1 & 2 FF Bdes, 1 Gk Bde
Army Tank Bde

The 15 Divs possibly includes 9th Army/PAIFORCE defending Palestine, Syria, Iraq & Persia.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I'm having a hard time coming up w/ 15 divs that in the Med that were there because of Italy's involvement in 40-41.

I would have no problem ascribing to Italy those lcus added to Gibraltar and Malta garrisons post Italy's dow, forces involved in Ethiopia/Greece/Crete, and the WDF/8th army. Re: the 8th, I think it's fair to say that a significant portion of their increased oob was due to the AK.

The remaining divs in theater I would classify them as pre-existing Imperial commitments having little, if anything, to do with Italy's actions.

Still pretty far from 15 divs. Still sounds like a book I should pickup. I don't have nearly enough on the Med.
warspite1

On Seas Contested
Torch
Struggle for the Middle Sea


Are other O'Hara books I have on the Med (or that include the Med - the first on the list is about all major navies in WWII). They are all worth reading.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I'm having a hard time coming up w/ 15 divs that in the Med that were there because of Italy's involvement in 40-41.

I would have no problem ascribing to Italy those lcus added to Gibraltar and Malta garrisons post Italy's dow, forces involved in Ethiopia/Greece/Crete, and the WDF/8th army. Re: the 8th, I think it's fair to say that a significant portion of their increased oob was due to the AK.

The remaining divs in theater I would classify them as pre-existing Imperial commitments having little, if anything, to do with Italy's actions.

Still pretty far from 15 divs. Still sounds like a book I should pickup. I don't have nearly enough on the Med.
warspite1

On Seas Contested
Torch
Struggle for the Middle Sea


Are other O'Hara books I have on the Med (or that include the Med - the first on the list is about all major navies in WWII). They are all worth reading.
I haven't read the latter 2.
O'Hara also wrote 'Dark Navy: The Italian Regia Marina and the Armistice of 8 September 1943', 'Black Phoenix: History and Operations of the Marina Repubblicana 1943-1945' and 'The Royal Navy's Revenge and Other Little-Known Encounters of the War At Sea', none of which I've read. [X(]

i did like his WWI book Clash of Fleets.
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”