Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Don't forget Adm. AB Cunningham's "A Sailor's Odyssey".

warspite1

Thanks - this is one I really should read.

[RFalvo69]

The very best book on the Regia Marina in the 1940-43 period is, sadly, only in Italian: "La guerra italiana sul mare. La Marina tra vittoria e sconfitta", by Giorgio Giorgerini. I hope that one day it will be translated, because I feel that it is the definitive reference so sorely missing in English-language literature.

Anyway, you can find it here: https://www.amazon.it/guerra-italiana-M ... giorgerini

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

The very best book on the Regia Marina in the 1940-43 period is, sadly, only in Italian: "La guerra italiana sul mare. La Marina tra vittoria e sconfitta", by Giorgio Giorgerini. I hope that one day it will be translated, because I feel that it is the definitive reference so sorely missing in English-language literature.

Anyway, you can find it here: https://www.amazon.it/guerra-italiana-M ... giorgerini

warspite1

Such a shame its not available in English [&:]

[warspite1]

Does anyone know any really good reference books on:

- The RAF
- The Regia Aeronautica
- The Luftwaffe

in World War II?

Specifically I am looking for details on numbers (personnel, squadrons, aircraft) during the war (although most importantly for the years 1939-43).

Thanks

[Buckrock]

Do you mean one book to rule them all or a book recommendation for each air arm?

I can recommend Dunning's "Courage Alone" for the Regia Aeronautica. I read it when it first came out and it was very detailed. There has been a new
edition released since and the reviews on that are very favourable.

For the RAF and Luftwaffe, I've no recomendations for those sizeable air forces as I normally only read books on their involvement in specific campaigns
or operations.

One book series that does cover the air aspect of the Mediterranean in great detail is Christopher Shores' "A History of the Mediterranean Air War
1940-1945". It's so good that it almost makes the Mediterranean seem exciting. Unfortunately for your purposes, it may also be way too detailed, by
that I mean you'd be getting books whose primary focus is day to day air operations and combat in the theatre with the coverage of higher level and
organizational aspects taking second place.

[warspite1]

Thank-you.

Courage Alone looks very promising for the Italians.

I'm trying to get a handle on aircraft numbers to understand where O'Hara gets his conclusions from.

[Buckrock]

You mean you're trying to reverse engineer his bibliography.[:'(]

Dunning's book should be worth the purchase anyway but otherwise it sounds an expensive exercise. For the RAF and LW, I'd just go hunt around
online as you'll probably find there are enough dedicated military websites out there that the figures might not be that hard to find (or compile).

[warspite1]

As I said there's lies, damned lies and statistics. I'm not interested necessarily in the sources O'Hara uses because while I don't think for a moment his numbers are incorrect - I do suspect he is using stats 'creatively' and indeed its not always what he says, but what he doesn't say.

I am also looking at a number of time periods - the nos. quoted by O'Hara are clearly late Med War. I want to see the build up of forces from scratch. I recently saw some interesting nos on German strength which are not massively different to the book but his numbers, when represented differently tell very a different story.

[Skyros]

Here is one I read a long time ago back in my NAPS days. I had a college professor MacGregor Knox say it presented a more positive spin then is warrented. I believed it was published in 1957.



https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Navy-Wor ... vy+in+wwii

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

The very best book on the Regia Marina in the 1940-43 period is, sadly, only in Italian: "La guerra italiana sul mare. La Marina tra vittoria e sconfitta", by Giorgio Giorgerini. I hope that one day it will be translated, because I feel that it is the definitive reference so sorely missing in English-language literature.

Anyway, you can find it here: https://www.amazon.it/guerra-italiana-M ... giorgerini

warspite1

Such a shame its not available in English [&:]

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know any really good reference books on:

- The RAF
- The Regia Aeronautica
- The Luftwaffe

in World War II?

Specifically I am looking for details on numbers (personnel, squadrons, aircraft) during the war (although most importantly for the years 1939-43).

Thanks

Courage Alone is every squadron history albeit a couple of lines for each at most half page per group, actually he goes by Group(3 fighter squadrons or 2 bomber squadrons), it is the reference to know what is everywhere but he does not go detail. The rest is generic.

The Regia Aeronautica Vol 1 and Vol 2 by Santoro is online in http://www.avia-it.com/act/avianew_index.asp site. I tis in Italian, but has statistics charts which anyone can understand with little effort.

Go here http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/libri/libri.asp accept and go "by Avia" and to "A"

click in Aeronautica Italiana nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale
Santoro G.

Each pdf is around 170 megs.

Edited.

[Dili]

These are the British Divisions, Brigades employed in Med 1940-43. Some subunits went for Sudan temporarily and Lebanon, Syria operation in summer 1941.

1, 2, 6, 7 , 10 Armored Div there was also an 8 Arm but was a skeleton.

Cav Div in Palestine disbanded in 1941


1,3(32), 9,22,23,24 Independent Army Tank Brigades and Armored Brigades.

1,4,5,6,12,44,46,50,51,56,78 Infantry Divisions

14,16,22,23,161 Infantry Brigades (14,16,23 went India)

1st Airborne Div

Then there are the whole Commonwealth Divisions:
6,7,9 Australian all retire in begin of 1942 to Asia
NZ Division
4,5,8,10 Indian some their units went Iraq and Sudan. 8 Indian was occupying force in Syria, Lebanon. Some brigades went Asia.
1,2 South African Div.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Wasn't Okinawa bigger than either?

Okinawa was in fact the single largest invasion ever made.

Okinawa had 7 Divisions i think just after a cursory look at wiki. I am not sure all were in first wave.

Husky had 3 US Inf.Div, 1 US Para, 1 Canadian Div, 3 British Infantry Divisions and 1 British Para/Airland. This was the first wave. The extension of the coast invaded was also several dozen km between extremes.

Also 1 US Armored, 1 US ID, 1 British ID and several brigades (reserve - follow up)

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

These are the British Divisions, Brigades employed in Med 1940-43. Some subunits went for Sudan temporarily and Lebanon, Syria operation in summer 1941.

1, 2, 6, 7 , 10 Armored Div there was also an 8 Arm but was a skeleton.

Cav Div in Palestine disbanded in 1941


1,3(32), 9,22,23,24 Independent Army Tank Brigades and Armored Brigades.

1,4,5,6,12,44,46,50,51,56,78 Infantry Divisions

14,16,22,23,161 Infantry Brigades (14,16,23 went India)

1st Airborne Div

Then there are the whole Commonwealth Divisions:
6,7,9 Australian all retire in begin of 1942 to Asia
NZ Division
4,5,8,10 Indian some their units went Iraq and Sudan. 8 Indian was occupying force in Syria, Lebanon. Some brigades went Asia.
1,2 South African Div.

warspite1

It would have been good to have even a small fraction of these available in June 1940 or even for Compass at the end of the year....[:(]

Thanks for the list but I think in terms of context, their arrival - not just removal dates - from the theatre is important. Having said that not all removal dates are shown, thus giving the impression there were more units than actually existed. For example 2nd Armoured only became available in January 1941 and ceased to exist after May 1941.

Also the list on its own suggests these are all fully formed units. Just as an example, 6th Infantry Division never fought as a complete division. An another, I don't think the British 12th Infantry Division existed after July 1940 and wasn't in the Desert as far as I know.

But thank-you for the list. I will have a look through and try and put some dates and detail on the bones.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know any really good reference books on:

- The RAF
- The Regia Aeronautica
- The Luftwaffe

in World War II?

Specifically I am looking for details on numbers (personnel, squadrons, aircraft) during the war (although most importantly for the years 1939-43).

Thanks

Courage Alone is every squadron history albeit a couple of lines for each at most half page per group, actually he goes by Group(3 fighter squadrons or 2 bomber squadrons), it is the reference to know what is everywhere but he does not go detail. The rest is generic.

The Regia Aeronautica Vol 1 and Vol 2 by Santoro is online in http://www.avia-it.com/act/avianew_index.asp site. I tis in Italian, but has statistics charts which anyone can understand with little effort.

Go here http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/libri/libri.asp accept and go "by Avia" and to "A"

click in Aeronautica Italiana nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale
Santoro G.

Each pdf is around 170 megs.

Edited.

warspite1

Courage Alone will hopefully arrive soon. I will also take a look at the sites you mention. Thank-you.

[Dili]

Yes 12 ID shouldn't have been in the list it was a Sudan force brigade size employed mostly for security between Tobruk to Tripoli in last stages in NA war.

If you got to a list of units in Med there are a couple of divisions that were hollow(troops diverted to existing divisions) or dummy/security like 7 and 40 Infantry divisions.

1 Arm 41
2 Arm 41
6 Arm 42
7 Arm 40 - not fully
10 Arm 42

1 ID 43
4 ID 43
5 ID 43
6 ID 41
40 ID 43
44 ID 42
46 ID 43
50 ID 41
51 ID 42
56 ID 43
78 ID 42

6 AUS ID 40
7 AUS ID 40
9 AUS ID 41

2 NZ 40

4 IND 40 partially(2 Brigades)
5 IND 41
8 IND 43
10 IND 41

1 SA 41
2 SA 41

There were many independent brigades.

[warspite1]

Courage Alone turned up today. Only had a chance for a skim through but this looks like a very good book indeed [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So back to In Passage Perilous and there is another point raised in the book within the conclusion that is worthy of mention and posts 104 and 105 refer to this. O’Hara again makes the point that the Mediterranean was the British main effort and that while Italy used the majority of its navy, most of its air force and a small portion of its army, for Germany the numbers were: less than 2% of its army, circa 15% of its air force and a “small fraction” of its U-boat arm. He rounds off this analysis with this conclusion: Every day it could deflect its enemy’s main effort with tiny forces in Africa or anywhere along the Mediterranean shoreline was a successful day for the Reich [my italics].

Lebensraum was Hitler’s raison d’etre and it does not take the powers of hindsight to know that this war was where Germany would succeed or fail and the last thing he needed when warring with the USSR was his southern flank being exposed.

Indeed, after the losses suffered in the first 9 months, in order for Army Group South to launch Operation Blue, the Germans needed to raid the assets of the other two Army Groups, for most of their .....air assets.

Given such a situation, ANY German assets being expended anywhere but in the east was, far from being a success, actually helping Germany to lose the war. O’Hara likes to repeat the mantra that North Africa was Britain’s main focus (as though the Italians were holding off the entire weight of the British Empire forces) but in reality situation was very different.

Similarly given the colossal losses of Luftwaffe aircraft in the USSR during that period, ANY aircraft assets being utilised in the Mediterranean rather than in the east was nothing short of a disaster and 15% is not insignificant.

And all this ignores the fighter strength and AA units that were defending Germany from Bomber Command (and from 1942 the USAAF)

warspite1

Following on from Post 116 (relevant extracts from this above) I read some interesting nos. that put a little detail on my contention above.

..by late autumn 1941 the Germans had about 16.5% of its frontline air strength in the Mediterranean/North Africa, rising to an average of 20% from the Spring of 1942 to summer 1943.

More significantly, by the end of December 1941 (and think about what is happening in the Soviet Union at this time) Germany was deploying more frontline aircraft against Britain in the Western and Mediterranean theatres combined (1,650 aircraft) than it was on the Eastern Front (1,563 aircraft). In particular the number of German fighters deployed in those two theatres were double that available for use in the East.

So I think references to tiny forces and successful day for the Reich combined with the over-egging of Britain's main contribution being in the Mediterranean are somewhat mis-placed.

[warspite1]

In the same vein, O'Hara's comment about a small fraction of its U-boat arm can be seen in more context when looked at from the German point of view.

Firstly U-boats were, much to the disgust of Donitz, diverted away from their main task and sent to the Mediterranean for the first time in September 1941. Note that in the second half of 1941 the losses in the Atlantic to U-boats had actually started to reduce from that in the first half and so the last thing Donitz needs at this point is more diversion of his resources.

So of the initial batch of boats diverted:

By the end of the year 37 U-boats had been diverted to the Med. 9 were either sunk or returned to France with battle damage before getting past Gibraltar and a further two returned with mechanical problems. 3 of the 26 were lost almost immediately. As has been recounted above, the U-boats took their toll of the RN in the Med, but this was not the purpose for which they were built. Moreover these boats were taken out of Donitz control and, as Clay Blair points out, Contrary to Donitz's assumption, no U-boat sent to the Mediterranean in 1941 (or later) ever returned to the Atlantic. The Mediterranean Sea was to become a seemingly endless drain of U-boats. It was a diversion of strength from the "decisive" area of the North Atlantic run.

I do not agree with Blair's statement that the boats achieved little - the loss of two carriers, a battleship etc tell a different tale - but the cost was high in U-boats AND moreover in the opportunity foregone in hurting the Atlantic trade routes.

Successful day for the Reich? Not really, just another strain on its finite resources that, in the final analysis, achieved nothing more than keeping the wolf from the door a bit longer rather than allowing the wolf to enter the house and gobble up its occupants.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yes 12 ID shouldn't have been in the list it was a Sudan force brigade size employed mostly for security between Tobruk to Tripoli in last stages in NA war.

If you got to a list of units in Med there are a couple of divisions that were hollow(troops diverted to existing divisions) or dummy/security like 7 and 40 Infantry divisions.

1 Arm Arrived Egypt 13/11/41 throughout campaign
2 Arm Egypt 1/1/41 Disbanded 9/5/41
6 Arm French Nth Africa 22/11/42 throughout campaign
7 Arm Formed 15/2/40 in Egypt throughout campaign
8 Arm Egypt 6/7/42 Did not fight as Division
10 Arm Palestine 1/8/41 from 1 Cav throughout campaign
1 Cav Palestine 3/9/39 Converted to 10 Arm
1 ID French Nth Africa 9/3/43 throughout campaign
4 ID French Nth Africa 23/3/43 throughout campaign
5 ID Egypt 13/6/43 Previously in Syria & Iraq
6 ID Egypt 3/11/39 from 7 ID Disbanded 17/6/40 10/11/41 Reformed 17/2/41 then renamed 70 ID
44 ID Egypt 24/7/42 After Alam Halfa Bdes fought under diff Divisions, disbanded 31/1/43
46 ID French Nth Africa 17/1/43 throughout campaign
50 ID Egypt 14/6/41 throughout campaign
51(H)ID Egypt 12/8/42 throughout campaign
56 ID Iraq 4/11/42, then Palestine, Egypt & NW Africa
78 ID French Nth Africa 9/11/42 throughout campaign
1 AB French Nth Africa 26/4/43 throughout campaign

6 AUS ID Palestine 12/2/40 In Syria 7/12/41 and returned to Australia
7 AUS ID Palestine 10/1140 & from units in ME In Syria 7/12/41 and returned to Australia
9 AUS ID Palestine 17/12/40 from units in ME & UK Returned to Australia after 2nd Alamien

2 NZ Went to Greece 4/41 then throughout campaign

4 IND Op Compass, then Abbysinia, then back to Western Desert
5 IND Abbysinia then Western Desert
8 IND I dont believe this Div served forward of Suez Canal until Italian Campaign
10 IND Western Desert

1 SA In theatre for Op Crusader then through to 2nd Alamein
2 SA Army Reserve for Op Crusader, destroyed at Tobruk 6/42

There were many independent brigades.

Bloody formatting bug!

These represent the MAXIMUM units which served in the Med, Only 2 Divs were available for Compass. Many of them also served as garrison on Cyprus (50ID) or Syria, Lebanon, Palestine (At 7/12/41 the 3 Aussie Divs were based there)

The equivalent AXIS commitment was
15 PZ
21 PZ
90 Lt (PZGR)
164 Inf
Ramke Para Bde

1 ID French Nth Africa
16 ID Lybia 6/42
17 ID Tripolitania 10/39
25 ID Tripolitania pre war
27 ID Covering force Tripolitania/Tunisia pre war
55 ID Lybia 9/39
60 ID In Lybia 9/40
61 ID In Lybia 9/40
62 ID In Lybia 9/40
63 ID In Lybia 9/40
64 ID In Lybia 9/40
65 ID Grenatieri de Savoia In Eritrea/Abbysynia

101 mot Lybia 8/41
102 mot Lybia from 2/41

131 Arm Lybia 10/42
132 Arm Lybia 1/41
133 Arm Lybia 1/42

136 Mot 5 Bns, Lybia 1/42

80 AL Lybia 10/42
185 AB Lybia 5/42

AFRICA Lt East Africa

1 CCNN In Lybia 9/40
2 CCNN In Lybia 9/40
3 CCNN In Lybia 9/40
4 CCNN In Lybia 9/40

1 COL East Sfrica
2 COL East Africa
3 COL East Africa

1 LIBYAN ID In Lybia 9/40
2 LIBYAN ID In Lybia 9/40
GR. MALETTI In Lybia 9/40

There were also dozens of AXIS units in garrison in Southern France, Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, Pantelleria, Crete , Greece and the Dododecanse.

[JeffroK]

Sources for above are Joslens OOB Second World War for the Brits and Madejas Italian Army OOB

Forgotten are the US Army, landing in French Nth Africa from 9/11/42
1 ID
3 ID
9 ID
34 ID
45 ID
1 AD
2 AD