Units won't manoeuvre in self-defence?

[Raptorx7_slith]

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

I tested it and you're right, the nanu doesn't turn to unmask the guns - but it does inded shoot the Geckos at the incoming missiles, something that it's not happening for you for some reason.

I'm just talking out of my ass here, but as Primarch said in this thread, a ship with 1 minute to spare before missile impact won't likely start turning to unmask AAA guns (which aren't going to be that useful anyway, in my test with manual steering they only started firing 2 seconds before impact) when the turn will just make it harder for the much more reliable Geckos to acquire the missiles.

This is basically it, if you check the firing arcs for the geckos and guns you'll notice the AAA can only cover to the rear of the ship and the missiles can only fire forward. The ship is choosing the best option to use against the missiles which in this case is its gecko missiles.

[ComDev]

Hi guys,

I'd like to take a closer look at this.

Can everyone zip their scenario files and attach them to their forum posts so that I can donwload, run in debugger, and see what the AI is actually thinking and doing?

Thanks! [8D]

[Raptorx7_slith]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hi guys,

I'd like to take a closer look at this.

Can everyone zip their scenario files and attach them to their forum posts so that I can donwload, run in debugger, and see what the AI is actually thinking and doing?

Thanks! [8D]

There does seem to be a problem.

tm.asp?m=4324627

[Dimitris]

We looked into this now. We had actually tweaked this behavior when it was first reported a couple years back, so we were curious to see what was wrong. The test cases were single OH Perry frigate against incoming ASMs, and single Nanuchka-IV corvette against same threat.

1) The Perry was placed in such a way that the incoming threat was masked from its Mk13 (SM-1) launcher. If it had no plotted course, the frigate correctly manouvered to place the threat abeam and engaged it with both the Mk13 (SM-1s) and the 76mm gun. If it was on a plotted course, the ship retained its heading and engaged only with the gun and CIWS.

2) The same behavior was observed with the Nanuchka. In one of the tests we deliberately damaged the SA-N-4 launcher so that the only available AAW weapons were the rear-firing guns, to see if this would change the AI's reasoning (it did). Without a plotted course, in every case the ship maneuvered to unmask what it considered the most appropriate weapon; sometimes this manouvering enabled unamsking all available weapons, sometimes only the "picked" one. With a plotted course enforced, the ship stuck to its course.

So, it appears that there is a bug in the unmasking logic which prevents unmasking if the ship is on a plotted course. If there is no plotted course, the ship correctly manouvers to unmask its most suitable weapon for the threat.

The problem appears only in engagements at ranges under 5nm, as (as explained in the manual) in greater ranges ships ignore the mount arc limits (they are assumed to micro-manouver to unmask mounts temporarily; also missiles can be fired "over the shoulder" at these ranges). It primarily affects smaller ships (bigger ships have multiple overlapping mounts to compensate for their limited manouverability).

This seems to be a recent issue, as the original tests included ships with and without plotted course. So some other probably caused this issue to re-appear recently. We will need to investigate this further.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Grazyn
I'm just talking out of my ass here, but as Primarch said in this thread, a ship with 1 minute to spare before missile impact won't likely start turning to unmask AAA guns (which aren't going to be that useful anyway, in my test with manual steering they only started firing 2 seconds before impact) when the turn will just make it harder for the much more reliable Geckos to acquire the missiles.

This matches our own experience as well. The AI usually picks the SA-N-4s as the most suitable weapon unless the launcher is unavailable or the threat is within CIWS range.

[PoorOldSpike]

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

I tested it and you're right, the nanu doesn't turn to unmask the guns - but it does inded shoot the Geckos at the incoming missiles, something that it's not happening for you for some reason.

I'm just talking out of my ass here, but as Primarch said in this thread, a ship with 1 minute to spare before missile impact won't likely start turning to unmask AAA guns (which aren't going to be that useful anyway, in my test with manual steering they only started firing 2 seconds before impact) when the turn will just make it harder for the much more reliable Geckos to acquire the missiles.

1- The Geckos work fine, sometimes they fire and sometimes (as in my example) they don't, which is realistic because the Nan has fairly old sensors, so there's no guarantee that they'll always lock on and fire, it's the 'uncertainty of war' thing..

2- In my example, the Nan detected the incoming Sirens at 13 miles, and as it took them 1 minute 21 secs to reach the vessel, the Nan would have had ample time to turn broadside on, as a 90 degrees turn only takes 15 secs.

3- You said that when you turned your ship broadside, the guns began firing 2 secs before impact. So again, it's an "uncertainty of war" thing, as in some of my tests the guns opened up at 8 secs or more, getting in several bursts to put a hail of lead in front of the missile and sometimes shooting it down, so guns are not to be sniffed at..

[PoorOldSpike]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
....So, it appears that there is a bug in the unmasking logic which prevents unmasking if the ship is on a plotted course. If there is no plotted course, the ship correctly manouvers to unmask its most suitable weapon for the threat..

Congrats to you and the team on a great piece of detective work mate..
So the good news is that the game already contains a clever bit of programming to make vessels realistically turn broadside to bring their weapons to bear, but the bad news is that if they're on a plotted course they won't turn.
Having successfully identified the problem, it now only remains for the team to do some tweaking to prevent plotted courses from overiding the turn action.
Meanwhile the only ways round it are-
1- Grab the end of the waypoint and drag it to manually turn the vessel yourself; the Geckos and guns will fire and you won't have to change the speed. Such micromanaging is only practical if there are only a small number of vessels in the scen.
2- Or select the end of the waypoint and delete it to allow the vessel to coast to a halt and begin automatically turning.
However 1 and 2 are only good for your own human-controlled vessels, as the computer-controlled ones will never turn and will just sail on looking stupid without turning to meet threats...

I ran some more tests and yes it's exactly as Sunburn said; the top screenshot shows how the unplotted vessel has pivoted due south and lets fly at the incoming Sirens with two Geckos, and in the bottom pic a few seconds later a burst of gunfire is on the way, backed up by another Gecko..
PS- interestingly, although the unplotted vessel was stationary (0 kts) facing the threat axis at first, it automatically started its engine to begin turning when it detected the incoming missiles (note its speed readout).
Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that the 6 Sirens carried by the Nan will fire even if the Nan has got a plotted course, and will also fire regardless of which direction the Nan is facing relative to the enemy..

[/img]


[/img]

[kevinkins]

My sober advice after a full year on the Forum every day:

If a player is calling into question aspects of the combat model, post a save file with the original post - please.

If after a long night of playing Command and your eyes are too tired to search the manual – post a quick question on how to accomplish the task that is frustrating you. The latter is usually resolved quickly without a lot of drama. The latter can foster constructive discussion on tactics and procedures and scenario design. Most players will help solve the problem within a few hours even while the asking player sleeps. We all like human interaction learning to navigate complex Command. I understand why folks will post beginner questions here while trying to become part of the Community. The Manual is boring in comparison. Real seasoned players bring the game to life apart from the manual. Just ask questions respectfully and concisely.

The Forum is here to help ...

Kevin

[PoorOldSpike]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
...The Forum is here to help ...

Yes that's what I've been telling people (especially noobs) in many wargaming forums for the past 15 years, and I've been an Admin/Mod at some of them. Currently I'm a Mod at Mission4Today where my computer-enhanced photothreads have had 7 million views so far.
I'm over 60 years old and have got 40 years of wargame experience in ground, naval and air boardgames, miniatures and computers which I like to pass onto people.
For example I've been playing all the old Harpoon series through many years, plus Fleet Command, Dangerous Waters etc.
I also write tutorials for different games and do reviews (I was a Matrix Press Reviewer), and organise wargame tournaments and provide silver trophies for the winners out of my own pocket.

I was on the payroll of Cases Computer Simulations as a developer in the 1980's, but since then have helped game companies and designers for free by playtesting their betas, and because I'm retired I can spend countless hours a day analysing and testing.
I'm currently on the Towards Berlin wargame development team and am also giving feedback for an Air Traffic game developer.
I've topped a number of competitive wargame play-by-email leagues over the years.

I'm generally well-liked in the wargame/flight sim community, and somebody was kind enough to gift me Chains of War only the other day, so I can only assume Thewood got me mixed up with somebody else when he called me names earlier in this thread..

Regarding CMANO, the best advice I can give to newcomers would be to say don't dive straight into the scenarios too deeply at first or you'll be dazzled like rabbits caught in headlights, but instead get into the Editor as soon as possible and set up tiny easy-to-handle scens with just one or two units per side so that you can see exactly how they carry out orders on a small scale.

Above all, I tell newcomers to all wargames everywhere to remember that bullets, shells, missiles and torpedoes etc have exactly the same hitting power regardless of whether they're fired by a newcomer or an old hand, so that makes newcomers just as dangerous as anybody else..

At the moment I'm into Armed Assault 3 multiplayer (below), and tell my human teammates- "Stick with me if you want to live"..

[thewood1]

Maybe I mixed you up with this guy...

tm.asp?m=3985171&mpage=1&key=&#3985171 from January 2016

Now look at this thread...

tm.asp?m=4323389&mpage=1&key=&#4323389

tm.asp?m=4322447&mpage=1&key=&#4322447

And the topic in this thread was discussed with that guy quite a bit a little later in 2016.

So either someone hacked your account back in January, or something else is going on.

I am again posting the images instructions because it seems to require multiple threads to sink in.

[thewood1]

So I stumbled on this thread on Steam...note the comments at the bottom.

So I am guessing Poor Old Spike had some ulterior motives in coming back and asking the same questions twice. Seems some people just can't move on.

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198061791195

That is what people get for wasting time trying help someone.

[HalfLifeExpert]

Just an FYI wood, your link is not to a thread, but to HermanHum's steam profile....

But yes, the fact that he is clearly in constant communication with him does make this very suspect. Herman is so unreliable that on the 2nd page of that comment thread, from a post on july 28, he states this clear and obvious lie:

"The latest versions have been taking out functions and features that have already been bought and paid by the players"

That only happened once back in February with the record feature, and the devs realized their error and restored the record feature.

[thewood1]

Sorry, didn't mean to promote that profile. If I had realized that, I would have tracked it back to the thread.

[PoorOldSpike]

Here's the situation guys- when I bought the boxed version of CMANO v1.05 a couple of years ago for 60 GBP (78 US dollars), the fact that ships wouldn't auto-turn to open their point-defence arcs towards incoming sea-skimmers was a game-killer for me, so I asked in this forum for a possible fix. Unfortunately there wasn't one, so I put the game on my shelf where it's been gathering dust ever since.
Since then, the game has gone through several updates and is now v 1.12.5, so I recently dusted it off and reinstalled it to see if the auto-turn issue had been fixed, but was disappointed to find that it hasn't been.
Other naval wargaming experts such as Herman Hum confirm my findings, so I'm not alone in this, in fact he tells me he was banned from here for pointing out the game's defects in this forum, he says you're CMANO fanbois who won't hear a word said against the game, so he's totally given up on it.

My own stance is that I too can't take the game seriously until the auto-turn thing is fixed, I hope that the detailed screenshots I posted earlier in this thread will help Matrix understand it and fix it.
My reputation as a hardass ruthless no-punches-pulled game analyser and reviewer around the wargaming community has carried some weight over the past 15 years, so when people ask me if they should buy CMANO, in fairness to Matrix I don't say yes or no, I say something like- "Well, a lot of people like it and can live with its flaws, but I'm not one of them"

Hey Matrix, I'd like to help you all I can, as one of my life mottoes is-
"There is no more noble occupation in the world than to assist another human being, to help someone succeed"- Alan Loy McGinnis (1933-2005)
so here's an idea of mine-
you could consider making the ships "abstractedly" auto-turn to fire their point-defences, that is to say we wouldn't actually see them turn on the screen, but we could imagine that they're turning!
Some programming would therefore be needed to make the ships always fire their point-defs at incoming missiles regardless of which direction the ship is facing, and we can "imagine" they've abstractedly turned to do so..
(That's how the old Harpoon series successfully did it).

PS- as for the image database eye-candy, that's only a minor side issue and is not too important to me, I couldn't get it to download and install properly 2 years ago, and also failed in a recent attempt too, but I'm sure the fault is mine because I couldn't follow the vague d/l instructions..

[kevinkins]

By shelving the game over the "auto-turn issue" aren't you "throwing out the baby with the bath water"? It would have been more constructive to calmly and persistently document the problem and avoid playing with weapon systems that create problems for you until they behave to your satisfaction. You missed out of a lot of great hours of gaming in the meantime rendering your purchase useless. We used to tell our young scientists at work "we do not expect perfection, we expect progress". This holds true in engineering software. The forum is all about fostering progress. Everyone chips in to some degree.

Kevin

[thewood1]

Again, helping people help themselves. I think the exposure of the agenda behind the exact same posts 18 months apart pretty much speaks for itself. Two or three supposed issues, 18 months, a week's worth of patience, 0 questions answered when posed...the numbers don;t add up. Then trying to pass it off as someone else asking the questions.

[PoorOldSpike]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
..It would have been more constructive to calmly and persistently document the problem and avoid playing with weapon systems that create problems for you until they behave to your satisfaction..

I paid 60 GB pounds (78 US dollars) for ALL weapon systems!
I mean, if you paid for the full services of a hooker you wouldn't like it if she withheld some of her systems..
Anyway I have brilliantly documented the problem with stunning tests and screenshots earlier in this thread, and moderator Sunburn agreed with me, and he said this in post #24-
"So, it appears that there is a bug in the unmasking logic which prevents unmasking if the ship is on a plotted course. If there is no plotted course, the ship correctly manouvers to unmask its most suitable weapon for the threat. ....Thanks for bringing this to our attention."

So as I've successfully brought the issue to Matrix's attention my work here is concluded and I can tend to other important matters like surfing Thai bride websites, doing playtesting to help game company bosses become millionnaires, and topping wargame leagues..

PS- here's the 6" tall hallowed trophy I won at the Rugged Defense wargame club, it has pride of place sitting in the centre of the coffee table in my living room, carefully positioned so that it catches the rays of the sun to ensure its dazzling glint is the first thing visitors see as they walk in, then during the course of the evening I naturally keep steering the conversation towards it..

[Peter66]

Poor Old Spike it seems that you like winning. You realise if you purchase a Thai bride it's because you can't win a real woman who loves you right? It's the same as buying a save game just before the victory and claiming you win.

You found a bug, congratulations. So did I but I didn't feel the need to go bragging about it. Perhaps you can help yourself become a millionaire because quite clearly you are that good you still need to work. Now I'm not going to dispute your wargame victories because I have no knowledge of you. However it does seem you are bragging over the wrong things.

[thewood1]

Note no reference to the repeating questions or hidden agenda.

[thewood1]

Anyone who has played any long supported game for a few years will find things that needed to fixed or tweaked. But the people coming in to pump themselves up or taking coaching from people who have been banned will find little support from the community.

The hidden agenda here was obvious and not very cleverly disguised. As I told everyone in my posts, I smelled this one out within one post. There is no excuse for what POS did in trying to get the forum twisted up and then running off giggling to he who shall be banned. Every time I think the devs are getting too wrapped in the whole "people are out to get them" controversy, someone like this comes along and reminds me why they are paranoid.