This game is BORKED

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I need new dice as well!

Sorry for hijacking, but the game IS BORKED INDEED, and I'm close to give it up (although probably not forever).

Cross-posting from my AAR:

Got the latest turn in my PBEM this morning. This time I'm close to rage-quit this USELESS TIME VAMPIRE OF A GAME.

Launched another deliberate at Chungking.

That city is surrounded and cut-off.

Yes, it's good defensive terrain with forts build-up to level 6.

However, it has been bombed and bombarded almost daily for many months by what I consider is a respectable concentration of air power and arty.

The defenders should be out of supplies, punch drunk and demoralized.

They have no tanks, they have no AT weapons to speak of, they have little arty, they are outnumbered.

Yet they have withstood one deliberate attacks a couple of weeks ago - with attacking forces tailored to match the stacking limit - with heavy losses to the attackers but at least a fort reduction to level 5 to show for.

This time I amassed forces totaling 260k hex troop level (limit is 160k).

There are lots tanks, there are lots of engineers, there are supplies.

All attacking units are 100% prepped, including four Corps HQs in situ and a Command HQ in range.

Results:

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 195905 troops, 1869 guns, 1724 vehicles, Assault Value = 5788

Defending force 139877 troops, 509 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3663

Japanese adjusted assault: 2313

Allied adjusted defense: 9109

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
57848 casualties reported
Squads: 1197 destroyed, 2485 disabled
Non Combat: 356 destroyed, 862 disabled
Engineers: 490 destroyed, 206 disabled
Guns lost 422 (111 destroyed, 311 disabled)
Vehicles lost 553 (170 destroyed, 383 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Allied ground losses:
2938 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 96 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 30 (1 destroyed, 29 disabled)

Assaulting units:
110th Division
3rd Ind Engineer Regiment
19th Ind Engineer Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
37th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Division
35th Division
22nd Ind Engineer Regiment
1st Cavalry Brigade
20th Ind Engineer Regiment
41st Division
30th Ind Engineer Regiment
24th Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
38th Ind Engineer Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
15th Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
70th Division
21st Ind Engineer Regiment
26th Division
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
19th Tank Regiment
13th Division
8th Ind Engineer Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
116th Division
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
1st Ind Engineer Regiment
25th Ind Engineer Regiment
7th Ind Engineer Regiment
69th Division
3rd Division
39th Ind Engineer Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
11th Army
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Army
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
4th Mortar Battalion
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Mongol Garrison Army
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Army
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
32nd Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
89th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
Central Reserve
39th Group Army
49th AA Regiment
41st AA Regiment
16th Construction Regiment
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
18th Artillery Regiment
China Command
12th Construction Regiment
CAF HQ
17th Group Army
31st Group Army
32nd Group Army
1st Chinese Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No combat modifiers for my leaders, experience, supplies, no HQ bonus although 5 HQs present.

Not even a f***ing forts reduction this time.

I'm torn between rage and despair.

Maybe I should just abandon the siege of Chungking, abandon China, abandon the SRA the the POA, and hole-up in the Home Islands and wait for the Allied bombers to flatten the economy.

Boy, am I depressed...


Btw, regarding the OP - if the engagement between 41st Regiment and the 3rd SSVF Brigade is a "Knavey" (i.e. a historical engagement with "borked" results), do have more details about that historical battle?

RIGHT large slow target; few possibilitys to have more troops japan side to get chunking.. hard roaD to get so deep.. The game is Borked..but we wanted¡..and now we DONT. so lets be pacient with WIPT 2 i guess the devs wanted us to have party time with the next (if possible) WAR IN THE PACIFIC...but the game for mi is also BORED. (except Guadalcanal scenario)

[Zecke]

TOtally borked¡..

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Zecke

TOtally borked¡..

[:D][:D][:D]

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Zecke

TOtally borked¡..

[:D][:D][:D]

what a chinesse flower or japanise¿ wacht out his hair¡,,danger¡

[Xargun]

Did someone say BORK !!

[nikoslejeune]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Did someone say BORK !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN1hL9cn7s0

The Swedish chef, I knew it, people just dont get it thats why we are hit by bad luck.
We should get him to explain it all.[:)][:D][8D][&:][:'(][:@]

[Zecke]

57878...prove to put in red numbers...the airfield damage and the run at 100%

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
This time I amassed forces totaling 260k hex troop level (limit is 160k).

LST:

Are you playing a mod with stacking limits? I would venture that the ability to take Chungking in stock scenario 1 or 2 (without stacking limits) would vary substantially with those mods that impose a stacking limit in a hex. For those scenarios, it's buyer beware: It may not be possible under *any* circumstances to crack Chungking.

[offenseman]

No prep bonus?

I believe that losses are multiplied when over stacked. I've seen similar results on a smaller scale in non-base hexes when over stacked by that ratio. If you want to try again, while you are rebuilding, get the hex back within stacking limits and prepare two attacks, one with the best units with the best leaders, the second with everything else you have but with both stacks within stacking limits. Do the customary air attacks for weeks and then when you are ready for that attack start moving your second group toward Chungking, when the second group is two days from Chungking, attack with the first wave. The next turn after you attacks start moving wave 1 away from Chungking. The second stack should then arrive before the first one left and the first stack should leave in the next few days. When the second attack is in place and the first attack stack is out of Chungking, attack. That should have the Chinese still disrupted to some extent and very low on supply.
Not sure if it will work but fresh troops attacking partially disrupted, tired, low morale troops might carry the day.
Like Chickenboy says though, it may not be possible at all to do it in certain set-ups

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This game is borked...let's give it up, completely and forever. Delete it from our hard drives. [:D]

You're right! You first. [;)]

I would, but the South Pacific map is hiding all my icons.

[eggmansdaddy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I need new dice as well!

Sorry for hijacking, but the game IS BORKED INDEED, and I'm close to give it up (although probably not forever).

Cross-posting from my AAR:

Got the latest turn in my PBEM this morning. This time I'm close to rage-quit this USELESS TIME VAMPIRE OF A GAME.

Launched another deliberate at Chungking.

That city is surrounded and cut-off.

Yes, it's good defensive terrain with forts build-up to level 6.

However, it has been bombed and bombarded almost daily for many months by what I consider is a respectable concentration of air power and arty.

The defenders should be out of supplies, punch drunk and demoralized.

They have no tanks, they have no AT weapons to speak of, they have little arty, they are outnumbered.

Yet they have withstood one deliberate attacks a couple of weeks ago - with attacking forces tailored to match the stacking limit - with heavy losses to the attackers but at least a fort reduction to level 5 to show for.

This time I amassed forces totaling 260k hex troop level (limit is 160k).

There are lots tanks, there are lots of engineers, there are supplies.

All attacking units are 100% prepped, including four Corps HQs in situ and a Command HQ in range.

Results:

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 195905 troops, 1869 guns, 1724 vehicles, Assault Value = 5788

Defending force 139877 troops, 509 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3663

Japanese adjusted assault: 2313

Allied adjusted defense: 9109

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
57848 casualties reported
Squads: 1197 destroyed, 2485 disabled
Non Combat: 356 destroyed, 862 disabled
Engineers: 490 destroyed, 206 disabled
Guns lost 422 (111 destroyed, 311 disabled)
Vehicles lost 553 (170 destroyed, 383 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Allied ground losses:
2938 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 96 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 30 (1 destroyed, 29 disabled)

Assaulting units:
110th Division
3rd Ind Engineer Regiment
19th Ind Engineer Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
37th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Division
35th Division
22nd Ind Engineer Regiment
1st Cavalry Brigade
20th Ind Engineer Regiment
41st Division
30th Ind Engineer Regiment
24th Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
38th Ind Engineer Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
15th Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
70th Division
21st Ind Engineer Regiment
26th Division
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
19th Tank Regiment
13th Division
8th Ind Engineer Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
116th Division
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
1st Ind Engineer Regiment
25th Ind Engineer Regiment
7th Ind Engineer Regiment
69th Division
3rd Division
39th Ind Engineer Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
11th Army
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Army
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
4th Mortar Battalion
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Mongol Garrison Army
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Army
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
32nd Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
89th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
Central Reserve
39th Group Army
49th AA Regiment
41st AA Regiment
16th Construction Regiment
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
18th Artillery Regiment
China Command
12th Construction Regiment
CAF HQ
17th Group Army
31st Group Army
32nd Group Army
1st Chinese Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No combat modifiers for my leaders, experience, supplies, no HQ bonus although 5 HQs present.

Not even a f***ing forts reduction this time.

I'm torn between rage and despair.

Maybe I should just abandon the siege of Chungking, abandon China, abandon the SRA the the POA, and hole-up in the Home Islands and wait for the Allied bombers to flatten the economy.

Boy, am I depressed...


Btw, regarding the OP - if the engagement between 41st Regiment and the 3rd SSVF Brigade is a "Knavey" (i.e. a historical engagement with "borked" results), do have more details about that historical battle?

What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously?

Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation....

printable.asp?m=4174182

Good luck on your next assault!

eggmansdaddy

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy

What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously?

Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation....

printable.asp?m=4174182

Good luck on your next assault!

eggmansdaddy

Like I said....[:)]

Fred

[eggmansdaddy]

Yep-you said it[:)]

eggmansdaddy

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy

Yep-you said it[:)]

eggmansdaddy

Have the same problem with Tokyo. Not a chance to get the upper hand in manpower (intelligence says 600.000 troops in
there) but the city has been under total siege for months now. Doesn't seen to mean a bit on the enemy supply situation.
AA and CD are as heavy and effective as ever, as are his ground forces.

Own bombers are massacred by AA, nightly naval bombardment with a dozen battleships has little effect (except on airfields
where no planes are flying from anyway). Have tried strategic as well as tactical bombing (a couple of thousand bombers of
all sorts), artillery and ground offensives. Maybe the atomic bomb was a good choice after all. But that is still a year on.

Fred

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy
What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously?

Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation....

printable.asp?m=4174182

Good luck on your next assault!

eggmansdaddy

Wrong assumption, I did NOT actually expect to take Chungking. See follow-up posts in my AAR. I expected to take down the forts one or two levels and heavy but less lopsided casualties. I have attacked Chungking before with lesser forces and got better results than this time. You think it's normal that with that amount of preparation, tanks, arty and combat engineers there is no fort reduction at all? I'm prepared to accept heavy losses in return for reasonable results. Here the results are not reasonable. Fine, the Chinese have had months to dig-in. Well, I have them surrounded and pounded them for months with thousands of bomber sorties and heavy shelling. They should have suffered more losses and a fort reduction, even if dealing punishment to the IJA in return. My totally biased opinion.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Accidential double post

While I am at it. The well-known 3:1 ratio for attack over defense is based on equal combat strength of units of comparable size. This does not apply here. How many tanks do the Chinese have at Chungking? How many AT guns, medium and heavy arty? How many planes? How much supply? And are the Chinese units all at or near full strength? I think the combat strength of one IJA class A or class B division was rated as equaling three Chinese divisions that is one Corps.

But well, in a realistic game I should not even get near Chungking for LOC reasons, so I'll stop ranting instead of gaming.

[IdahoNYer]

What surprises me here is:

1. Why the Jpn assault value was REDUCED if the force is fully prepped. Due to overstacking perhaps? I would have thought you would have achieved at least a 1-1 attack with all that combat power - and then had a better chance to reduce forts.

2. The Chinese got a leader bonus! REALLY??!!

Real world assault ratios are great to understand, but don't necessarily have bearing in this games crazy land warfare....

[rustysi]

Sorry to say, but IIRC (its a game parameter), no reduction in fort level unless the odds are at least 1:1.

[eggmansdaddy]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy

Yep-you said it[:)]

eggmansdaddy

Have the same problem with Tokyo. Not a chance to get the upper hand in manpower (intelligence says 600.000 troops in
there) but the city has been under total siege for months now. Doesn't seen to mean a bit on the enemy supply situation.
AA and CD are as heavy and effective as ever, as are his ground forces.

Own bombers are massacred by AA, nightly naval bombardment with a dozen battleships has little effect (except on airfields
where no planes are flying from anyway). Have tried strategic as well as tactical bombing (a couple of thousand bombers of
all sorts), artillery and ground offensives. Maybe the atomic bomb was a good choice after all. But that is still a year on.

Fred

Night incendiary bombing and lots and lots of napalm with tac air.

LeMay did way more damage with fire bombing than the A bomb did....

Good luck with your restructured air campaign.

eggmansdaddy

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Sorry to say, but IIRC (its a game parameter), no reduction in fort level unless the odds are at least 1:1.

Combat engineers can squeeze in fort reduction under any odds.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire... ehm, I mean... AI lowering my forts in 1:100 or smth. Can be a bit frustrating )