8MP Team Game - The Axis team

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
Telemecus, how long do you reckon the German level bomber pools could hold out against an actively defending Soviet player? I haven't delved into the German production details that much but I'd guess a few failed sorties (20-30+ bombers shot down) might cause the bombing to cease?

Well I should say never once, I think, have the bombers been sent on an unescorted daylight bombing mission which could be intercepted. So we should never get a result like that. So far losses are purely flak/operational - or sometimes combat when being escorted. Fatigue is really the killer now.

By keeping track of where soviet airbases are every turn, using recon to check where the interceptors are, and recon to the target to see if they ever get intercepted you can be sure of that. To protect all targets the Red Air Force would need to commit a lot to their defence - the Soviet Union is a big country with short range fighters. Whereas we could choose where to attack. However they could push us to more marginal targets or to use night bombing.

Once you get to damage levels like 20+% then adding 1% is worth it, because that 1% will last many turns and so will be worth multiples of what the first 1% damage was. So it then does become worthwhile at that level to fly night missions. Yes the damage is less - but it is multiplied by the many turns it takes to repair. So once you have let it go too far bringing in fighter cover just means night missions which keep factories ever from repairing.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
GE has 400 old Ju-86/He-111 level bombers in the pool and around 1000 Ju88/He-111/Do-217 on the fields. They produce 66 more each turn. So losing 50-100 bombers a turn isn't that catastrophic. I guess you're using the level bombers strictly for strategic city bombing?

Also remember there are quite a lot of arriving airgroups with many bombers in them - and we have made sure withdrawing airgroups go with as few bombers as possible and with the oldest air frames. There are weather patterns to consider, so this run rate will not be the same all the time. And remember a lot of the losses are Rumanians/Finns etc too.

But no we are using them for ground bombing/support too. The Axis have so few tactical bombers that you have to. Stelteck/thedude357/lowsugar can tell you how much they have been used by them. But I think it is fair to say that running the air offensive against the red air force principally has taken away some of what they normally would have used for ground support/bombing. The city bombing usually every turn has been last to be done and the last priority.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
attach construction workers to the city to repair the damage quicker I would assume.

I think the repair is always on a fixed 3% a turn schedule - but thinking about it construction attachments should repair factories quicker. Perhaps someting for WitE1.12 or WitE2?

whoops, wite 2 I believe it does affect. Will go take a look there.

[SpicyJuan]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
In Robert Harris' Fatherland the Eastern Front ended up being a far Eastern guerilla war which was nevertheless debilitating on the Third Reich. I do think there was enough commitment, and plenty of experience from the civil war, to carry on a "war" by other means even if the centralised control had gone. If the Nazi offer was of independence, or at least autonomous subservience, there would have been plenty of "white" factions to counter them of course - but that was not a route they went down even in more adverse circumstances. But it is one of the great what-ifs of history.

In game terms there have been AARs of games where the Axis have reached the Urals, and still been beaten back to Berlin. I remember reading of an incident when in 1941 Stalin was considering a peace offer of ceding the Baltics, Belarus and Ukraine for peace - and of one person in the meeting insisting they would still win even if they were back out to the Urals. So it was not inconceivable to them then. If more western allied production had gone to equip cheap Soviet soldiers rather than the best paid GIs for instance, it may even have been more effective. Whatever the case the game, without sudden death conditions, does not model a political collapse. And it gives enough offmap/farmap industry that the Soviets could always get to Berlin eventually if they were given a sufficient number of turns.

A guerrilla war would be hell for the Germans and the Soviet population and would likely occur. If the Axis somehow did reached the Urals it would've been "game over" for the Soviets. They'd have nothing left except some industry close to the front, unreachable resources, and a massive starving population. The game should be modeled so that if the German's occupy a significant amount (Volga basin, Leningrad, Moscow, Astrakhan, Grozny, Stalingrad) that the Soviets won't be able to recover and that no amount of turns will matter.

[SpicyJuan]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I do not think any german victory or city, even moscow, leningrad, stalingrad or whatever could have significantly changed the course of the war against the soviet union.

I do think Germany could have won the war.

Germany could have won the war, by adding to military victory, the promotion and support of local independence movement (Baltic states, Ukraine, etc...) and taking the lead in a popular revolt against Stalin and Bolshevism, which was not well loved.....

But a Nazi Germany could not do that. Nazi ideology was looking only for slaves and empty lands. And the german army began committing war crimes since day one against civilians and prisoners of war. Peoples in soviet union quickly realized that the Germans were not their friend and their only hope of survival was to fight to the end.

It was then over.

IMO you get to a point where morale collapses as people think that defeat is inevitable. There's a certain point where people chose food over an idealistic goal which may seem to never happen.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: SpicyJuan

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
In Robert Harris' Fatherland the Eastern Front ended up being a far Eastern guerilla war which was nevertheless debilitating on the Third Reich. I do think there was enough commitment, and plenty of experience from the civil war, to carry on a "war" by other means even if the centralised control had gone. If the Nazi offer was of independence, or at least autonomous subservience, there would have been plenty of "white" factions to counter them of course - but that was not a route they went down even in more adverse circumstances. But it is one of the great what-ifs of history.

In game terms there have been AARs of games where the Axis have reached the Urals, and still been beaten back to Berlin. I remember reading of an incident when in 1941 Stalin was considering a peace offer of ceding the Baltics, Belarus and Ukraine for peace - and of one person in the meeting insisting they would still win even if they were back out to the Urals. So it was not inconceivable to them then. If more western allied production had gone to equip cheap Soviet soldiers rather than the best paid GIs for instance, it may even have been more effective. Whatever the case the game, without sudden death conditions, does not model a political collapse. And it gives enough offmap/farmap industry that the Soviets could always get to Berlin eventually if they were given a sufficient number of turns.

A guerrilla war would be hell for the Germans and the Soviet population and would likely occur. If the Axis somehow did reached the Urals it would've been "game over" for the Soviets. They'd have nothing left except some industry close to the front, unreachable resources, and a massive starving population. The game should be modeled so that if the German's occupy a significant amount (Volga basin, Leningrad, Moscow, Astrakhan, Grozny, Stalingrad) that the Soviets won't be able to recover and that no amount of turns will matter.

The Axis lost 33 men in capturing Leningrad on week 13. We don't need to talk about victory conditions until silliness like these kinds of results are fixed.

[SpicyJuan]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: SpicyJuan

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
In Robert Harris' Fatherland the Eastern Front ended up being a far Eastern guerilla war which was nevertheless debilitating on the Third Reich. I do think there was enough commitment, and plenty of experience from the civil war, to carry on a "war" by other means even if the centralised control had gone. If the Nazi offer was of independence, or at least autonomous subservience, there would have been plenty of "white" factions to counter them of course - but that was not a route they went down even in more adverse circumstances. But it is one of the great what-ifs of history.

In game terms there have been AARs of games where the Axis have reached the Urals, and still been beaten back to Berlin. I remember reading of an incident when in 1941 Stalin was considering a peace offer of ceding the Baltics, Belarus and Ukraine for peace - and of one person in the meeting insisting they would still win even if they were back out to the Urals. So it was not inconceivable to them then. If more western allied production had gone to equip cheap Soviet soldiers rather than the best paid GIs for instance, it may even have been more effective. Whatever the case the game, without sudden death conditions, does not model a political collapse. And it gives enough offmap/farmap industry that the Soviets could always get to Berlin eventually if they were given a sufficient number of turns.

A guerrilla war would be hell for the Germans and the Soviet population and would likely occur. If the Axis somehow did reached the Urals it would've been "game over" for the Soviets. They'd have nothing left except some industry close to the front, unreachable resources, and a massive starving population. The game should be modeled so that if the German's occupy a significant amount (Volga basin, Leningrad, Moscow, Astrakhan, Grozny, Stalingrad) that the Soviets won't be able to recover and that no amount of turns will matter.

The Axis lost 33 men in capturing Leningrad on week 13. We don't need to talk about victory conditions until silliness like these kinds of results are fixed.

Wow that's certainly ridiculous. To be clear I'm not advocating for any hard rule of victory conditions, rather that as the Soviets lose important cities and regions that their replacements and supply decrease to the point that they'll be much less in 1942- than historically (e.g. No German's reaching the Urals only to be pushed back all the way to Berlin). In other words the Soviet player doesn't have any more space to trade.

[thedude357]

Turn 12 Army Group South - 10 September 1941

The infantry continues the march east while the Soviets continue to retreat. 6th Army reaches the gates of Kursk. The Soviets in the Stalino pocket have completely abandoned any attempt at a breakout and move as many forces as they can inside the cities. However, the Stalino pocket continues to get smaller. Voroshilovgrad and Belgograd fall. Zero activity near Rostov, the Soviets have stayed put along the Don...probably a wise move.

The Soviet defensive position to the Crimea has been breached. It took plenty of nebelwerfers and pioneers and 3 infantry divisions to force the Soviet retreat. The Soviet position in the Crimea is now untenable...we will soon see how they maneuver.

[Telemecus]

Turn 12 10-September-1941 Centre

50 miles to Moscow and Operation Tottenritt continues. It looked like the Soviet position had become impenetrable to all but brute force grinding - but Stelteck continues to pull out miracles. More running battles as yet more units in the Western Front are surrounded this time in the North. Meanwhile a further big pocket East of Bryansk is solidified. Tula has yet to evacuate all its arms factories, and Kalinin is overun with its factories still there.



I bet Stelteck is glad of the bicycling blitzkriegers now

[M60A3TTS]

26 casualties. Almost as much lost in the battle for Leningrad. I lose more when playing a battalion-size kampfgruppe in Steel Panthers.

[Stelteck]

At least the AT support regiment managed to killed 3 tanks. Without it it would have been 1/2 damage and 0 kill.

[Telemecus]

Turn 12 10-September-1941 North

Even surrounded after turns Leningrad is proving a difficult beast to reduce. Leningrad holds out and Axis casualties reach three figures - M60A3TTS take note!



Meanwhile North attacks eastwards from Lake Ilmen. North has taken over a frontage almost all the way to Moscow now.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

26 casualties. Almost as much lost in the battle for Leningrad. I lose more when playing a battalion-size kampfgruppe in Steel Panthers.

The casualties caused to Germans, I'm sorry to say this but I have to, is "retarded". Even with experienced Division with squad experience in the 50's and Morale in the 50's I barely peak over 75 versus a PZ Division. Then the Soviets take 1,000's in return when attacking said Division.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

At least the AT support regiment managed to killed 3 tanks. Without it it would have been 1/2 damage and 0 kill.

I believe in one of the patches (need someone smart on all the patches Morvael, Telemecus, Nix77) the defense value or something was increased. Something on that line. It is just laughable how little damage you can cause to the Germans.

[Telemecus]

Turn 12 10-September-1941 Air War AKA SparkleyTit's Carnage Report

House rules state there would be no resupplying of partisans for the first ten turns - although they did in three of them. Now the Soviet team are free to supply partisans but have not done so for two turns. I have never faced such a situation so I am uncertain if this means we can now ignore the possibility of partisan attacks. Our centre commander offers their usual sage, if somewhat delphic, advice

Stelteck:
It is like weather. Sometimes it is raining.

Big changes in Soviet air force deployment this turn. Their airfields are now being deployed far back from their front lines. And the airgroups on them are almost exclusively fighters or fighter bombers.



As a consequence their air losses are lower simply because they have fewer aircraft to lose. They continue to lose many interceptors though - and more modern types than usual. Almost all of our airfield bombing now is unopposed - this is leaving our fighters relatively fresh but our bombers very fatigued. Getting bombers to bases with sufficient ammunition for their turn is a challenge. In Moscow however some non-fighter type of aircraft remain and relatively close to the front.



We have been detecting a number of new airbases being created near Moscow. As the Red Air Force has been shrinking and seems to largely now be in the national reserve there does not seem to be any need for more airbases - many of their existing airbases are empty of airgroups. And creating them near Moscow is the one place where they will quickly be spotted by our recon.



And finally the Red Air Force seems to want to start defending the Soviet Union and not just itself, and failing to do so. Realising that losing production of interceptors would mean the air force never gets out of its predicament four airbases are detected with 18 interceptor airgroups near Gorky. Recon quickly established these airgroups do want to fight. So rather than a free hand of unescorted daylight bombing we have to turn to night bombing. While Moscow is held, our fighters are just out of range of Gorky. Moscow is important not just in itself but to keeping a viable Red Air Force in future.



And finally are recon leaving surreptitious clues again - or is it just a bluff?

[Telemecus]

Turn 12 10-September-1941 Economic War

This turn the advance of Axis forces meant the factories at Voroshilovgrad and Kalinin have been lost by the Soviet Union. In addition the factories at Stalino, Makeevka, Gorlovka, and in and around Leningrad cannot currently be evacuated - if we assume these are lost too total Soviet indutrial losses are

99 Arms (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 6 Dnepropetrovsk, 8 Poltava, 15 Kharkhov, 3 Kramatorskaya, 1 Mariupol, 29 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Taganrog, 8 Leningrad and environs, 3 Kalinin)
63 Hvy (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 2 Dnepropetrovsk, 4 Kharkhov, 2 Kramatorskaya, 5 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Kaluga, 2 Tagnrog, 10 Leningrad and environs, 4 Rostov, 4 Voroshilovgrad, 4 Kalinin)
25 Vehicle (20 Kharkhov, 5 Stalino)
Su-2 (Kharkhov)
LaGG-3 "11 series" (Taganrog)
BA-10 Armd Car (Leningrad and environs)

Strategic Bombing
We inflict 3% of damage on the LaGG-3 factory at Dzerzhinsk to take its damage to 27%, keeping up with its repair rate - maintaining it at this level would mean just over half the time it would not produce. The T-34 factory at Gorky is kept to 1% damage to prevent its expansion, but only 1 % damage on its LaGG-3 factory seeing it's damage level at 14%. The Murom vehicle factory is also in range of the Gorky interceptors, but its damage increases by 5% to 41%, meaning we are still gaining on its repair rate.



On the other hand the first of the Yak-1 factories come fully into range of the Luftwaffe. Together with the Rumanian air force the three factories are left on 13%,10% and 1% damage. But with serious damage levels being incurred there are the Soviets likely to start defending it in a serious way as they are at Gorky? More of our airforce is now close enough to start bombing the arms factories of South Stalingrad too.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 12 10-September-1941 North

Even surrounded after turns Leningrad is proving a difficult beast to reduce. Leningrad holds out and Axis casualties reach three figures - M60A3TTS take note!

Probably what the Germans were losing at Verdun on average every few minutes.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 12 10-September-1941 North

Even surrounded after turns Leningrad is proving a difficult beast to reduce. Leningrad holds out and Axis casualties reach three figures - M60A3TTS take note!

Probably what the Germans were losing at Verdun on average every few minutes.

No kidding M60. Seriously the loses to the Germans really needs to be looked at imho.

[Telemecus]

Turn 12 Allocations

For information only - turn 12 Axis team allocations

[Telemecus]

Turn 13 11-September-1941 The Conquered Territories at Start of Turn