tyronec (Axis) vs Grognard1812. Grognard welcome.

[tyronec]

AGC. The Soviets have retreated yet again! So have wasted my HQB. Will follow up and get set up for the attack on Moscow next turn. There are around 1500 fighters providing air cover.

AGS. Soviets have pulled back to the Mius though they still occupy Stalino on an exposed finger. More annoying a cavalry division and snuck through my front line, it wouldn't have mattered except I neglected to take the port of Osipenko last turn so those hexes did not flip and three of my armoured divisions are out of supply.
I think I will advance North and South of Stalino without attacking it and under the threat of being pocketed he will probably withdraw next turn.

Air war. Almost no soviet attacks, my fatigue is down to 1 across the board.
There are two many fighters facing AGC to attack them and will have no ground combat here this turn. Will switch my air assault to AGN and then can provide some ground support up there.

[tyronec]

AGN. My initial thought was to cut up to the railway line (Plan A) which if cut would force him to withdraw from Logada, however after my initial infantry attacks it became clear he had too much infantry behind the front line. I did the rest of my infantry moves and found a couple of weakness in the front line (an airborne brigade and defence 3 inf. div) so adopted Plan B of pocketing about 10 units with my armour. Crossed the river in the south and was able to use my HQB corps to exploit the hole. Was then able to make a second pocket to the south - Plan C.

We do three more attacks on Leningrad which all fail, have lots of pioneers here and the fort is down to 0.34. Probably a mistake to continue to attack - war gamers stubbornness !

He has a lot of troops up north, they are beginning to be at risk of being cut off if I could join up with the Finns so he may withdraw from Lake Lagoda next turn in which case I will move up along the coast.

[tyronec]

My three failed attacks on Leningrad, have got the fort down but on reflection if I had been attacking across the river getting the fort down would make more difference.

AGC. We just move up into contact. I hope to be able to storm the Moskva river next turn,in which case the whole defence of Moscow will be compromised.

AGS. We advance into contact, the most advanced panzers are 31 hexes from supply so we won't be getting much fuel. Did one HQB, we have two arriving full infantry armies during next couple of turns. Only 50 miles to Rostov.

Air war. Some fighter sweeps up north nets 250 for 15 but when the Luftwaffe try and bomb his air bases there is still too much cover. We can support the combats making the pockets where there is no air cover.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

the problem is giving up space that quickly = lost units, as the soviet manpower bonus in 1941 is huge. Yes he will end up with more experience units in late 1941 and early 1942 but Im also curious how many factories he has lost will lose, as this can present a big problem in 42/43 when armaments points reserve runs dry.

Soviet attrition losses are also massive until late 1943 due to low experience and support, so you need alot of manpower just to keep the soviet army afloat. Be interesting to see how the run at max speed turns out- Im thinking not good.

New strategy for me so not sure how it will work out. From the Axis side I have been at the limit of my supply which is frustrating, however without much combat my army is in good shape and lots of APs with only two HQBs to date.

42 will become much easier since the North will be pretty much secured. Just get enough buffer for the Blizzard turns up north if you have to retreat(i.e. ~10-15 hexes).

[John B.]

@HardLuck. I'm down here in Richmond. Have a good group of gamers so it's hard to think of moving!

[Grognard1812]

Was able to temporarily open the large pocket by airdropping supply to 3 divisions in the pocket (to get them out of
isolated status) and then attacking with a total force of 6 divisions and one brigade against a single German
motorized regiment.

[Grognard1812]

On Game Turn 9 the air war continued West of Moscow.

I noted that when conducting air recon missions near Tyronec's airbases that his fighters did not try to intercept,
which probably meant he had interception off. Launched large bombing missions on all his airbases. In one mission
15 fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe for the loss of 37 Soviet bombers.

[Grognard1812]

Tried a night time airbase bombing mission with all the IL4 bombers located in VVS bases (they were on night
mission only for the purpose of resupplying partisans. To my surprise most of the IL4 fleet was lost, 109 of 121
sent on the mission, as they were intercepted by Luftwaffe night fighters. At least the Luftwaffe lost another
11 fighters.

[Grognard1812]

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

[topeverest]

I don't know what value soviet retreating without combat and avoiding all pockets. all those units come back, and trading units for time is a major soviet tool in 41

Morale and experience bonuses for units not destroyed are real, but so much is given up.

I will continue to watch with interest

You look good for very deep penetration in 41.

ORIGINAL: tyronec

AGC. The Soviets have retreated yet again! So have wasted my HQB. Will follow up and get set up for the attack on Moscow next turn. There are around 1500 fighters providing air cover.

[Grognard1812]

Agreed, I am following an unusual strategy. But I feel this is the best way to win as Soviet when playing against
a capable experienced Axis player.

As we are playing the 'Sudden Death' campaign scenario I can't just keep retreating to the Urals, because as soon
as Tyronec reaches 260 victory points he immediately wins a decisive Axis victory.

[topeverest]

Summer 42 will be a nailbiter!

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Agreed, I am following an unusual strategy. But I feel this is the best way to win as Soviet when playing against
a capable experienced Axis player.

As we are playing the 'Sudden Death' campaign scenario I can't just keep retreating to the Urals, because as soon
as Tyronec reaches 260 victory points he immediately wins a decisive Axis victory.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

For any wishing to combat the Russian Air hordes (I normally run 2 strong air fronts and one weak one where I'm not pushing hard)

These are just things I would do (and have done) against a Soviet aggressive bomber. If you are going to follow this you have to only use the fighters for protection of your Airbases first and foremost(a few ground support missions are ok but don't move your airbase off the railheads to do so) No CAP missions to draw out the Russians, no bombing of Russian Airfields, no nothing until a set time in the future(it will be easy to see when to do these things because many Soviet players are over zealous with their aircraft). But first we need to do a few things. First no fighters will be on an airbase beyond the furthest most rail head(if you aren't in range of the front then oh well) This will be our Forward Airbase and should have 2~3 squadrons on an the air base and 2 airbases and an Air HQ with flak(I won't get into the flak qtys) on that forward railhead. You will then put another 2 airbases 5 hexes behind the forward airbase with 2-3 squadrons on the airbase and an Air HQ with flak. Make sure to be within 5 hexes for supporting flak. (have two empty airbase in this area to move forward when railhead moves) THEN 10-15 hex (keep in mind 109 range to support forward Airbases on railhead) behind the forward most Airbase on railhead, and place on a rail, you will place the rear 2 airbases with 4-6 air squadrons per airbase and Air HQ with Flak. (Try to place the airbases where a Russian unit has to fly over the first set of airbases to get to the airbases 10-15 behind. This way they will get attacked on the way by flak to the remote airbases by flying over or close to the first set of airbases. (at least that is what I have seen many many many times)). Now place one free airbase with "no" fighters on it on a rail directly behind the last airbase. Then place another free airbase behind that one and make sure it is free with no aircraft. These airbases will be used to rotate fighters from front to rear with air transfer when needed. This is a brief writeup but should give you an idea what is going on here. You can even set up two fronts airbases close to have a huge field of AA fire and fighters support. Good luck.

Start off with ~125-200% and 40-45% to fly. Adjust accordingly. This will fluctuate based on what I see against me and what happened the previous turn.


Remember that if you are going to use this then any and all missions should stop that is using the fighters. Any fighter with fatigue over 9 needs to either go to reserve (over 18+ fatigue to reserve) or to the rear to a rear base the 10-15 hex (on rail) from the forward Air base to rest. Until we can get most of our fighter rested and refined let the Soviets run with their bombing. Because once your ground units are in an entrenchment of +1 or better the bombers really don't do much.

Good luck and there is a great deal more to this than just a quick write up with many different mitigating circumstances. Use this at your own pearl since I understand my own madness but hard to put into words for others to follow. Ask any questions you may have.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

For any wishing to combat the Russian Air hordes (I normally run 2 strong air fronts and one weak one where I'm not pushing hard)

These are just things I would do (and have done) against a Soviet aggressive bomber. If you are going to follow this you have to only use the fighters for protection of your Airbases first and foremost(a few ground support missions are ok but don't move your airbase off the railheads to do so) No CAP missions to draw out the Russians, no bombing of Russian Airfields, no nothing until a set time in the future(it will be easy to see when to do these things because many Soviet players are over zealous with their aircraft). But first we need to do a few things. First no fighters will be on an airbase beyond the furthest most rail head(if you aren't in range of the front then oh well) This will be our Forward Airbase and should have 2~3 squadrons on an the air base and 2 airbases and an Air HQ with flak(I won't get into the flak qtys) on that forward railhead. You will then put another 2 airbases 5 hexes behind the forward airbase with 2-3 squadrons on the airbase and an Air HQ with flak. Make sure to be within 5 hexes for supporting flak. (have two empty airbase in this area to move forward when railhead moves) THEN 10-15 hex (keep in mind 109 range to support forward Airbases on railhead) behind the forward most Airbase on railhead, and place on a rail, you will place the rear 2 airbases with 4-6 air squadrons per airbase and Air HQ with Flak. (Try to place the airbases where a Russian unit has to fly over the first set of airbases to get to the airbases 10-15 behind. This way they will get attacked on the way by flak to the remote airbases by flying over or close to the first set of airbases. (at least that is what I have seen many many many times)). Now place one free airbase with "no" fighters on it on a rail directly behind the last airbase. Then place another free airbase behind that one and make sure it is free with no aircraft. These airbases will be used to rotate fighters from front to rear with air transfer when needed. This is a brief writeup but should give you an idea what is going on here. You can even set up two fronts airbases close to have a huge field of AA fire and fighters support. Good luck.

Start off with ~125-200% and 40-45% to fly. Adjust accordingly. This will fluctuate based on what I see against me and what happened the previous turn.


Remember that if you are going to use this then any and all missions should stop that is using the fighters. Any fighter with fatigue over 9 needs to either go to reserve (over 18+ fatigue to reserve) or to the rear to a rear base the 10-15 hex (on rail) from the forward Air base to rest. Until we can get most of our fighter rested and refined let the Soviets run with their bombing. Because once your ground units are in an entrenchment of +1 or better the bombers really don't do much.

Good luck and there is a great deal more to this than just a quick write up with many different mitigating circumstances. Use this at your own pearl since I understand my own madness but hard to put into words for others to follow. Ask any questions you may have.

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

On Game Turn 9 the air war continued West of Moscow.

I noted that when conducting air recon missions near Tyronec's airbases that his fighters did not try to intercept,
which probably meant he had interception off. Launched large bombing missions on all his airbases. In one mission
15 fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe for the loss of 37 Soviet bombers.

Day or night bombing? I read on multiple different times that you were only flying day missions. So which was this, day or night?

[Stelteck]

Did this strong emphasis of saving troops upon fighting german this summer 1941 will work in the long term ?

It is always good to save manpower, but the soviet will have to overcome some difficulties :

- First, the soviet will still have to avoid sudden death conditions. And loosing objectives early will give tons of point to the enemy and may trigger an early defeat (Or give so much point to the ennemy that the defeat will occur at the end of the campaign whatever the operations.
- Second, the upgrade of the soviet army is still hardcoded, by the date of corps creation and the political points production. Even with tons of troops, you will still have tons of weak divisions and it will be difficult to attack with them.
- Third, the german army will be in very good position for a big spring 1942 offensive and the soviet will still have to run a lot to avoid destructions, because although 1941 looks hard, the most dangerous time for the soviet is still spring 1942 because you still have to defend with weak divisions, the enemy armored force is concentrated and you have so much more to loose at this time.

Last, avoiding fight may prove psychologically difficult, as it is not so fun and having a fighting spirit can help overcome the psychological despair of the first years of suffering playing as soviet union. [:D]

[tyronec]

Day or night bombing? I read on multiple different times that you were only flying day missions. So which was this, day or night?

Grognard was not flying night bombing before T8, he is now. Also the game is running one turn ahead of the AAR, next turn my 109s are daytime only.
Some interesting advice above, will read and absorb. My tactics for the past few turns has been to attack the Soviet air force where they are weak, stay out of fighter range where they are strong and only bomb ground units where they have no fighter cover.

[Grognard1812]

Since the beginning of the game I have conducted only one night time bombing mission (The IL4 air base
bombing mission). Would only consider conducting night time bombing missions in the future if the Luftwaffe
isn't flying any night time fighter intercepts near their air bases.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

For any wishing to combat the Russian Air hordes (I normally run 2 strong air fronts and one weak one where I'm not pushing hard)

These are just things I would do (and have done) against a Soviet aggressive bomber. If you are going to follow this you have to only use the fighters for protection of your Airbases first and foremost(a few ground support missions are ok but don't move your airbase off the railheads to do so) No CAP missions to draw out the Russians, no bombing of Russian Airfields, no nothing until a set time in the future(it will be easy to see when to do these things because many Soviet players are over zealous with their aircraft). But first we need to do a few things. First no fighters will be on an airbase beyond the furthest most rail head(if you aren't in range of the front then oh well) This will be our Forward Airbase and should have 2~3 squadrons on an the air base and 2 airbases and an Air HQ with flak(I won't get into the flak qtys) on that forward railhead. You will then put another 2 airbases 5 hexes behind the forward airbase with 2-3 squadrons on the airbase and an Air HQ with flak. Make sure to be within 5 hexes for supporting flak. (have two empty airbase in this area to move forward when railhead moves) THEN 10-15 hex (keep in mind 109 range to support forward Airbases on railhead) behind the forward most Airbase on railhead, and place on a rail, you will place the rear 2 airbases with 4-6 air squadrons per airbase and Air HQ with Flak. (Try to place the airbases where a Russian unit has to fly over the first set of airbases to get to the airbases 10-15 behind. This way they will get attacked on the way by flak to the remote airbases by flying over or close to the first set of airbases. (at least that is what I have seen many many many times)). Now place one free airbase with "no" fighters on it on a rail directly behind the last airbase. Then place another free airbase behind that one and make sure it is free with no aircraft. These airbases will be used to rotate fighters from front to rear with air transfer when needed. This is a brief writeup but should give you an idea what is going on here. You can even set up two fronts airbases close to have a huge field of AA fire and fighters support. Good luck.

Start off with ~125-200% and 40-45% to fly. Adjust accordingly. This will fluctuate based on what I see against me and what happened the previous turn.


Remember that if you are going to use this then any and all missions should stop that is using the fighters. Any fighter with fatigue over 9 needs to either go to reserve (over 18+ fatigue to reserve) or to the rear to a rear base the 10-15 hex (on rail) from the forward Air base to rest. Until we can get most of our fighter rested and refined let the Soviets run with their bombing. Because once your ground units are in an entrenchment of +1 or better the bombers really don't do much.

Good luck and there is a great deal more to this than just a quick write up with many different mitigating circumstances. Use this at your own pearl since I understand my own madness but hard to put into words for others to follow. Ask any questions you may have.

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

Once your air fatigue is low with the 109's (i.e. under 5%)choose one or two squadrons per front (normally I start out with 1) and put them on night missions only with the 110's. Make sure you choose the ones with the "highest" exp & morale for this job. (I was experimenting with this and found mixed results, if you like to give it a try). Also I forgot to mention that the night mission base should be centrally located to support the other bases and have a hq and flak.

Again you may find mixed results at this stage of the air war. I always start from turn one prepping and have a nice rotation set up of well rested fighters. By not engaging the Soviet Fighters directly the Germans are keeping the Soviet experience down and forcing them to take chances on long range escort at max range with their newer model aircraft (also this cuts out all the old I-16 & I-153 from scoring victories too by being out of range for escort).

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Day or night bombing? I read on multiple different times that you were only flying day missions. So which was this, day or night?

Grognard was not flying night bombing before T8, he is now. Also the game is running one turn ahead of the AAR, next turn my 109s are daytime only.
Some interesting advice above, will read and absorb. My tactics for the past few turns has been to attack the Soviet air force where they are weak, stay out of fighter range where they are strong and only bomb ground units where they have no fighter cover.

It is nice to be aggressive but imho the early Air War turns the Germans just can't until their supply situation is close to the front. The key is being patient and bidding time for the pounce.