"It's the economy, stupid" BTSL NY59G (J) vs Gen Patton (A)

[ny59giants]

By mid-Dec, I get plenty of brigades for China. Brian had wanted the daily PP to be 120, so right now I have about 14,000. I can buy out pretty much what I want from China, but the decision on what to do about Chungking lingers until I get feedback from my readers. I have 5.6M in supplies, so that isn't an issue. [:)]

[ny59giants]

With a lower than normal air war, my fighter pools are looking good. Right?? [&:]

[Dirtnap86]

Holy cow, 2000 zeroes (of various makes) in the pool and a decent pool of Frank and George. No wonder the IJNAF never seems to run out, I'm a stock Allied player so seeing those numbers would make me despair.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Chungking - What to do about this base?!? The Allies have 195 LCUs there and about 860,000 troops which means a lot of mouths to feed. [:D] In earlier posting, Pax and others said they took control of all hexsides but one to allow a retreat path. I have 25 full strength divisions plus plenty of artillery within two hexes and almost everyone 100% prepped. The SL for Chungking is 160,000. Do I attempt to take the base or just take control of ALL hexsides and keep bombing the AF?

Of course you take it. I would totally surround it and not worry about the retreat path, as by the time they retreat that is really pretty meaningless.

With SL, his losses will be horrible beyond belief. Just rotate your units in and out, bomb and bombard. You will want lots of tanks.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Hartwig,

I understand your concern about these deep strike attacks by the Allies. Canoerebel (Dan) has done it twice now. The first vs John 3rd was after KB had been significantly weakened. The second was against Obvert to a place and in a game where there is NO stacking limits. I wish there was a sound way to stop or at least slow down these deep strikes, but I don't know if there is one.

Sure there are, but most JFBs aren't ready to counter it or are caught by surprise.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Screenshot - lots of brigades coming in the next few days. Where to send them??

Nice problem to have. [:D]

[pws1225]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Chungking - What to do about this base?!? The Allies have 195 LCUs there and about 860,000 troops which means a lot of mouths to feed. [:D] In earlier posting, Pax and others said they took control of all hexsides but one to allow a retreat path. I have 25 full strength divisions plus plenty of artillery within two hexes and almost everyone 100% prepped. The SL for Chungking is 160,000. Do I attempt to take the base or just take control of ALL hexsides and keep bombing the AF?

I was in a similar position as you in my current game. Chungking was badly over stacked and I had plenty of AV to both surround the hex as well as offer a substantial force inside the city. The real key for me to taking the city was a prolonged artillery bombardment. I had bought out every artillery unit in Manchukuo and hauled them in for the siege. Even in a heavy urban hex, badly over stacked units suffer heavy causalities under bombardment, both from artillery and the air. It was not uncommon to see over 200 combat squads killed per day. It took me about 3 months to render the Chinese helpless and I took the city with minimal losses.

[ny59giants]

Here are my IJN fighters. Yes, there is a 'few' more groups here than you Mike S. [:)]

[ny59giants]

My CV based TBs are getting there experience wise, but I want to get them higher. So I'm training them in a third skills, ASW.

[ny59giants]

My CV based DBs are getting better. I cannot wait until the next gen of Judys come out with their 800kg bombs.

[Mike Solli]

Yeah, just a couple more fighter groups. [;)] Man oh man! [X(]

[mind_messing]

Regarding Chungking, leave one hexside open, better to force the Chinese out of the city and forts and bomb and beat them in the open. Absolutely, 100 percent take Chungking. There isn't a single valid justification not to.

In regards to the Judy 800kg bomb, I had high expectations for it, but in retrospect I think the two 500kgs on the Grace might be better. As far as I can remember, the only thing the 800 AP bomb can do that the 500 AP can't is penetrate the deck armour of some BB's (and I think only the older ones at that). I think with the GP version of the bombs the potential damage of the 2x500 would beat the 1x800 as well. That said, the 800s are nice - they have a lovely habit of blowing up DD's and smaller in a single hit, and a hit or two on bigger ships hurts.

However, it seems AE Gods prefer more bombs over bigger bombs. Take this with a good dose of salt, it has been some time since I last check the values in the database!

[ny59giants]

43 Nov 12, 13, 14: same, same

China:
Chungking - Usual bombing by 126 Helens. However, I've got troops marching now to close most of the hexsides and actually enter the hex. Two of the least experienced Helen groups from Calcutta are moved here to help.

Kashgar - Some Brit Liberators and B-24s practice on my troops here.

CenPac:
Arorae - My 10 fastest DDs bombard a now empty dot base. The 2 AVDs have headed SE. Nells from Tarawa moved to Tabiteuea to try to finish them off.

Notes:
CVL Kurama arrives at Tokyo. The 2 Shokaku-kai CVs will arrive in 3 days at Hiroshima. That will bring in the last of my CV/CVL.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Regarding Chungking, leave one hexside open, better to force the Chinese out of the city and forts and bomb and beat them in the open. Absolutely, 100 percent take Chungking. There isn't a single valid justification not to.

In regards to the Judy 800kg bomb, I had high expectations for it, but in retrospect I think the two 500kgs on the Grace might be better. As far as I can remember, the only thing the 800 AP bomb can do that the 500 AP can't is penetrate the deck armour of some BB's (and I think only the older ones at that). I think with the GP version of the bombs the potential damage of the 2x500 would beat the 1x800 as well. That said, the 800s are nice - they have a lovely habit of blowing up DD's and smaller in a single hit, and a hit or two on bigger ships hurts.

However, it seems AE Gods prefer more bombs over bigger bombs. Take this with a good dose of salt, it has been some time since I last check the values in the database!

The Grace has 2 x 250kg. I also found those more effective most of the time to slow down the ships you want to sink, giving the TB a chance to hit.

[ny59giants]

43 Nov 15 thru 18: "Siege of Chungking" begins

Subs: Fours days worth of [>:] [>:]

CVs:
CVs Kasigi & Katsuragi arrive at Hiroshima on 16th

China:
Chungking - Now up to 207 Helens bombing base. Three days of consecutive shock attacks have given me control of all but the NW hexside. This is the last with a small China based brigade.

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 6582 troops, 419 guns, 311 vehicles, Assault Value = 3664

Defending force 561572 troops, 133 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 16713

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 4427

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1248 casualties reported
Squads: 64 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 55 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 46 (11 destroyed, 35 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (7 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1516 casualties reported
Squads: 82 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
68th Division
35th Division
19th Ind Com Engineer Regiment
36th Division
17th Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Division
41st Division
25th RGC Temp. Division
17th Division
58th Division
20th Ind Com Engineer Regiment
21st Division
2nd Tank Division
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
13th Army
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
4th Mortar Battalion
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
21st Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind. Field Artillery Regiment
44th Field AA Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
23rd Army
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
60th Chinese Corps
21st Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
64th Chinese Corps
82nd Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
89th Chinese Corps
58th Chinese Corps
63rd Chinese Corps
9th Separate Brigade
24th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
83rd Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
78th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
39th Chinese Corps
5th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
3rd Prov Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
25th Chinese Corps
3rd New Chinese Corps
19th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
33rd Chinese Corps
8th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
88th Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
61st Chinese Corps
70th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
66th Chinese Corps Corps
20th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
8th New Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
79th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
7th Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps
31st Chinese Corps
50th Chinese Corps
98th Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
259th Brigade
44th Chinese Corps
54th Chinese Corps
18th Chinese Corps
43rd Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
23rd Chinese Corps
35th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps
8th Prov Chinese Corps
69th Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
81st Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry Corps
11th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
100th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
52nd Chinese Corps
6th Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
17th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
2nd Prov Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
303rd Brigade
5th Chinese Cavalry Corps
91st Chinese Corps
65th Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
1st Artillery Regiment
3rd Construction Regiment
16th Construction Regiment
12th Group Army
41st AA Regiment
31st Group Army
13th Chinese Base Force
8th Group Army
15th Group Army
9th War Area
2nd Construction Regiment
7th Construction Regiment
4th War Area
2nd Chinese Base Force
13th Construction Regiment
24th Group Army
2nd War Area
7th Chinese Base Force
22nd Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Base Force
40th Group Army
29th Group Army
27th Group Army
22nd Group Army
5th War Area
3rd Group Army
7th War Area
56th AT Gun Regiment
China Command
25th Group Army
20th Chinese Base Force
11th Construction Regiment
23rd Group Army
10th Construction Regiment
Central Reserve
18th Group Army
32nd Group Army
Red Chinese Army
NCAC
14th Chinese Base Force
4th Construction Regiment
15th Chinese Base Force
87th Chinese Corps
11th Chinese Base Force
Lusu War Area
4th Group Army
30th Group Army
17th Construction Regiment
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
17th Group Army
13th Group Army
19th Group Army
18th Chinese Base Force
6th War Area
2nd Group Army
Y' Force
10th Group Army
20th Group Army
CAF HQ
9th Chinese Base Force
17th Chinese Base Force
14th Group Army
9th Group Army
33rd Group Army
73rd Chinese Corps
5th Construction Regiment
8th Chinese Base Force
7th Artillery Regiment
6th Group Army
49th AA Regiment
34th Group Army
35th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
39th Group Army
37th Group Army
21st Group Army
1st War Area
11th Group Army
3rd War Area
38th Group Army
5th Chinese Base Force
16th Chinese Base Force
1st Group Army
22nd Artillery Regiment
5th Group Army
8th War Area
16th Group Army
36th Group Army
7th Group Army
Jingcha War Area
8th Construction Regiment
21st Chinese Base Force

Notes:
P1Y2 Frances to 3/44

N1K5-J George to 8/44 (land based version)

A7M2 Sam to 1/44 (2 are expanding to 90 planes per month, while rest are to help with M3 version)

Ki-61-II KAIB Tony to 4/44

D4Y4 Judy to 4/44

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Regarding Chungking, leave one hexside open, better to force the Chinese out of the city and forts and bomb and beat them in the open. Absolutely, 100 percent take Chungking. There isn't a single valid justification not to.

I see no other Allied bases in the vicinity of CK, so no supply path and hence no possibility of retreat even with open hexsides.

Also, with SL there might be reasons to not take CK for some time. You can knock forts to zero and then milk easy VPs with bombardments indefinitely from ever reviving Chinese. Trashing the industry beforehand and preventing fort building by bombing goes w/o saying of course.

[ny59giants]

43 Nov 19, 20, 21: The "Arizona Effect" [&o]

Subs:
Tullibee is 2 NW of Kusaie. Helens and Jakes are now set to ASW patrols.
Guardfish gets a TT hit on an xAK off Toyohara, but she is able to still make it to Hokkaido.

China:
Chungking - Helens bomb AF all three days. Troops dig in and an infantry division and more heavy artillery march to close the 6th hexside.

Aleutians:
Chirikof Island - NavS had shown a TF here on the 20th. This is the southern most of the three dot bases south of Kodiak. I see 78 George and 35 Frank sweep over the dot base and TF that is there. There is NO LRCAP. Then, comes...

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Chirikof Island at 179,46

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 15
D4Y2 Judy x 52
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 27

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 2 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y2 Judy: 22 damaged
D4Y2 Judy: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BC Ranger, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
CLAA Detroit, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Montpelier
DD Kalk
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
CA Quincy, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAP Juan de Fuca, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Bailey

Allied ground losses:
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
11 x D4Y2 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D4Y2 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x D4Y2 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
11 x D4Y2 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D4Y2 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

Magazine explodes on BC Ranger
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA San Francisco

The "Arizona Effect" comes into play as one penetrating bomb is enough to sink this fine enemy ship. If I remember correctly, there is something like a 2 or 4% chance of a catastrophic explosion when an ammo/magazine explosion occurs. Way back in early WITP days, I had BB No Carolina get hit with a single TT off G'canal and the same thing happened.

Air losses are 18J vs 4A with 11 KIA

Notes:
I think Brian is kicking himself for not having any LRCAP over his Aleutian TF. Ouch!! [:D]

B7A2 Grace to 8/44

Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy to 5/44

[Lowpe]

You should really be planning to get this game well past Soviet activation...you are doing very well.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Regarding Chungking, leave one hexside open, better to force the Chinese out of the city and forts and bomb and beat them in the open. Absolutely, 100 percent take Chungking. There isn't a single valid justification not to.

I see no other Allied bases in the vicinity of CK, so no supply path and hence no possibility of retreat even with open hexsides.

Also, with SL there might be reasons to not take CK for some time. You can knock forts to zero and then milk easy VPs with bombardments indefinitely from ever reviving Chinese. Trashing the industry beforehand and preventing fort building by bombing goes w/o saying of course.

Is that the case? My understanding is that even without a valid supply path, troops that are beaten will be pushed out of the contested hex, so long as there is an open hex side for them to do so. I've had similar situations where I've had units almost certainly lacking a valid supply path be pushed around.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Regarding Chungking, leave one hexside open, better to force the Chinese out of the city and forts and bomb and beat them in the open. Absolutely, 100 percent take Chungking. There isn't a single valid justification not to.

I see no other Allied bases in the vicinity of CK, so no supply path and hence no possibility of retreat even with open hexsides.

Also, with SL there might be reasons to not take CK for some time. You can knock forts to zero and then milk easy VPs with bombardments indefinitely from ever reviving Chinese. Trashing the industry beforehand and preventing fort building by bombing goes w/o saying of course.

Is that the case? My understanding is that even without a valid supply path, troops that are beaten will be pushed out of the contested hex, so long as there is an open hex side for them to do so. I've had similar situations where I've had units almost certainly lacking a valid supply path be pushed around.

+1