The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2

[MakeeLearn]

The Martian Code

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: witpqs
No, not at all. Question: "Was it Bushido?" Answer: "No. It was BS that someone made up as an excuse and called it Bushido to sell it to people." In no way whatsoever does that answer in any way seek to excuse conduct.

My point Exactly - it's all BullShit to excuse abhorrent conduct... and if my language is too strong - compare that to the atrocities.

Of course it was used to justify atrocities (something I didn't even touch on in my previous response), but it wasn't bushido - it was a bastardized version of "bushido" that the extreme militarists/jingoists used to beat the drums of war and suppress dissent. Then someone comes along with a reference to the non-bastardized piece of Japanese history (actual bushido/samurai behavior, which is rife with its own problems just like anybody else's history) and equates it to the behavior of the IJA in the 1930s and WW2. Which is incorrect, which is what I'm pointing out.

It's similar to when people get all uppity about Japan building a modern navy and using their historical names for ships - as if the current government of Japan was going to invade Korea and commit genocides simply because they're building a new Kaga.

[Big B]

I agree Lokasenna, Cheers [;)]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
...
Of course it was used to justify atrocities (something I didn't even touch on in my previous response), but it wasn't bushido - it was a bastardized version of "bushido" that the extreme militarists/jingoists used to beat the drums of war and suppress dissent. Then someone comes along with a reference to the non-bastardized piece of Japanese history (actual bushido/samurai behavior, which is rife with its own problems just like anybody else's history) and equates it to the behavior of the IJA in the 1930s and WW2. Which is incorrect, which is what I'm pointing out.

[MakeeLearn]

A bushi specific ethical system based on western values is the bastard?

"To complicate matters, at the time of Bushido: The Soul of Japan's release, few Japanese even recognized the term bushido. In Musashi: The Dream of the Last Samurai Mamoru Oshii explains, "Bushido was not known among Japanese people… It appeared in literature, but was not a commonly used word."

"But in reality the term bushido did not exist until the twentieth century. In fact, Nitobe, one of the first scholars to embrace bushido, thought he created the term in 1900.

"Terms like budo (the martial way), bushi no michi (the way of the warrior), and yumiya no michi (the way of the bow and arrow) are far more common," Benesch writes (7). Although these terms prove that warrior ideals had a place in the Japanese consciousness, equating them to bushido would be inaccurate.

"The concept bushido came into use during the Meiji era but wouldn't gain widespread acknowledgment until Meiji's end. Despite popular imagery, ancient samurai did not write about or discuss bushido. Dishonorable acts didn't end careers and lives as romanticized histories lead us to believe."


"Bushido had never existed as an honor code or term in ancient Japan as Bushido: The Soul of Japan implied. Nitobe's representation of the samurai class proves itself just as contrived. Like all human beings, samurai morals varied by individual."

"Historical accounts show that samurai did not follow an honor code, which would have been an impractical obstacle to survival, victory, and comfortable living. Timon Screech writes "We are talking mythologies. The belief that samurai ever fought to the death does not survive investigation, nor the claim that they made the sacrifice of disembowelment when atonement was required. The motto the way of the samurai is death was invented long after death had ceased to be on most samurai's minds or a reality in their lives… they were bureaucrats."

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

[MakeeLearn]

Seems to imply that the "Code of the Samurai (Bushido Code)", as Westerners tend to see it, is the bastard of Western Christian and Chivalrous values mated with "bushi no michi" (the way of the warrior) Samurai Code of "victory and survival". "Real bushido" as believed in by Westerners is the real bastard. In reality, warriors focused on victory and survival not on counterproductive codes of honor.

Therefore, whatever brings "victory and survival" is bushi no michi.

[Yaab]

How do you incalculate Bushido in IJN sailors? They operate complex machinery (ships), follow procedures, do routine tasks, do not see their enemy face to face (gunnery duels, carrier battles). It seems Bushido indoctrination wouldn't help them at all in seamanship.

They only instance of Bushido in the context of IJN is probably this book
https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Bushido-Ja ... od+bushido

Seems Jap submariners like torturing and killing survivors.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

How do you incalculate Bushido in IJN sailors? They operate complex machinery (ships), follow procedures, do routine tasks, do not see their enemy face to face (gunnery duels, carrier battles). It seems Bushido indoctrination wouldn't help them at all in seamanship.

They only instance of Bushido in the context of IJN is probably this book
https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Bushido-Ja ... od+bushido

Seems Jap submariners like torturing and killing survivors.

That's a pretty big brush you've got there. Where'd you get it?

[Yaab]

If you mean if I have read the book, then no, I have not. I was browsing the Web for any info about Bushido and IJN, and this title popped out.