BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

[Kitakami]

Ok... I have been notified that house rules have been approved. Here they are:


1. If we feel somethings gamey/amiss or just peeved with anything for any reason, let’s talk about as soon as it surfaces. This includes the possibility of modifying house rules.

2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.

3. Amphibious assaults can only happen at dot and regular bases. This includes submarine-borne troops.

4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in. Exceptions: Manchukuo <-> Korea and India <-> Akyab. Thai units may move up to two hexes across their national border without paying PP but must pay if they want to go farther.

5. No transfer of American units from the Philippines directly to the Chinese mainland. Air units CAN be transferred to India, for example. Then, if there is ground support for them in China, they can rebase there.

6. All Allied air forces based in China must be supported by base force units of the same nationality. In other words, if you want to base American B-17s in China, there must be an American base force and/or engineer unit at the airfield with enough AV support to handle the planes.

7. No 4E naval bombing below 7,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units.

8. B-29s cannot be used for naval attacks.

9. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.

10. Port Attacks can only be carried out by Japanese Carrier Aircraft on Turn One.

11. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs). Both IJN and Allied CVEs can FERRY larger fighters, but they can’t OPERATE from them.

12. If at least one unit begins the game in a base containing some form of HI, LI, Oil, Resources, etc. (but not Manpower only) the hex cannot be vacated. This prevents the total destruction of installations on an auto base flip.

[Kitakami]

I am waiting for the latest version of the mod before starting the analysis of the situation, but any and all thoughts are welcome, even befora that happens.

[ny59giants]

1) You will face many Fast Transport TFs made up of CA/CL with DDs.

2) He will be much more aggressive in China that he has been to date. I think his game vs Canoerebel woke him up that he cannot leave that much of a force free for the end war.

3) He loves sinking merchants. He will go for them everywhere.

4) I like to convert the Clemson DDs to APDs in 2/42 and then the Wilkes Class DDs to DEs in 5/42.

5) I like my AMC and APDs formed into my own Fast Transport TF. It has its uses.

6) PBYs - pay PP to bought out some from USA and fly the to Midway and beyond via Aleutians before John takes Midway.

7) Plan for a Mersing invasion on 8th or 9th

8) India - Not because you are playing John, but I focus on forts everywhere except Delhi which is AF expansion so I can upgrade airframes

9) USA - I've further damaged/disabled industry in USA. You will not have significant amounts of supply readily available for the first one to two months unless you turn off some repairs. Plan accordingly.

10) Save your CVs. I take off the TBs for most expect Lex and Big "E" in beginning and put on extra marine fighter groups.

Good luck and happy hunting!! [:D]

[Mike McCreery]

I would be against the possible modifying of house rules.

Sure, you could agree to not do something but this comes up unilaterally as obviously one player is committing an action the other player does not like.

John was pretty abusive of house rules that were not even agreed to in his last game with CR.

[HansBolter]

HRs are atrocious.

70% percent of them place restrictions on Allied flexibility while I see almost no restrictions on Japanese flexibility.


If your are not familiar with Allied starts, first thing you need to do before issuing any orders is comb through every ship in every port and identify desired conversions.

Lots to convert to AKEs, AGs and even some AKVs. Don't want to get conversion candidates tied up in CS convoys.

Next get all dispersed shipping headed to supply/fuel/troop sources.

Most of all, good luck and have fun.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
HRs are atrocious.

70% percent of them place restrictions on Allied flexibility while I see almost no restrictions on Japanese flexibility.
<snip>

A fair thought, but think about this:

2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.
=> P-38s have the upper hand here for a long time. I will definitely send a squadron to India ASAP.

4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in. Exceptions: Manchukuo <-> Korea and India <-> Akyab. Thai units may move up to two hexes across their national border without paying PP but must pay if they want to go farther.
=> Japanese forces in China <-> Manchuria are affected the most. If John decides to reinforce China, it will be hard for me, but those units won't be going elsewhere for a time.

7. No 4E naval bombing below 7,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units.
=> This includes the IJN G5N and G8N bombers, with their ridiculously large bomb loads and huge operational ranges. I do not know if John will use them or not, but I definitely would!

11. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs). Both IJN and Allied CVEs can FERRY larger fighters, but they can’t OPERATE from them.
=> This I requested for historical reasons. Fighters operating from USN CVEs were F4Fs.

12. If at least one unit begins the game in a base containing some form of HI, LI, Oil, Resources, etc. (but not Manpower only) the hex cannot be vacated. This prevents the total destruction of installations on an auto base flip.
=> This was John's ONLY request. I agreed to it.



With no restrictions on strategic bombing, John will have to have CAP over anything important he conquers within 4E range. That will include Miri, Palembang, Balikpapan, etc. Unless Java falls quickly, he will not get those oilfields and refineries in good shape. I think the name of the game is making him spend more supply that he would care for. If he raids heavily, he will be spending oil. If he is not careful, his long term ability to project power will be compromised.

Note than there is no altitude restriction on night bombing (it would have been ahistorical), and there is no restriction on 2E naval bombing, so there are constraints, but I do not think they will be as bad as many fear.

Having said that, please remember I am a Japanese Fan Boi (TM) at heart, so some habits die hard. I will need help to be able to think like a competent Allied player. Thanks for you comments, nt59giants, Wargmr, Hans, and all. Please keep them coming.

[HansBolter]

It was all the restrictions in China that I see as unfair.

The base game is already heavily skewed against the Chinese and for Japan in China.

As an AFB I don't see the Japanese needing any help whatsoever in China.

Supply alone will limit any American air ops in China, the base force restriction is completely unnecessary.

Will Japanese land based naval air not be allowed to operate from IJA air bases?
Will IJA air squadrons not be allowed to operate from IJN bases?

I don't see a corresponding limit on the Japanese.

[jwolf]

Rule 6 on air base support in China does seem perverse to me. Since there is hardly any Chinese air force and never will be much of one, if the players adopt this rule then what is the point of the various Chinese air support units? And what of the AVG?

[Kitakami]

Rule 6 was a leftover from my current game with Falken. Which was a leftover from when Falken played the Allies and I played the Japanese. Not John's fault. If it comes back to haunt me, it will be my own fault.

[Kitakami]

Got the scenario files from John this morning. Now to go through them with a fine-toothed comb. Will post the main points as soon as my notes are finished.

[Kitakami]

Ok... first post: non-restricted Japanese land units and starting locations (notes at the end):

IJA:

14th Army:

* 16th Inf Div - Takao
* 48th Inf Div - Pescadores
* 65th Inf Bde - Takao

15th Army:

* 4th Inf Div - Samah
* 33rd Inf Div - Nagasaki
* 55th Inf Div - Cam Ranh Bay

16th Army:

* 2nd Inf Div - Samah
* 38th Inf Div - moving towards Hong Kong
* 90th Inf Div - Tokyo
* 21st Ind Mixed Bde - Samah

25th Army:

* Imperial Guards Div - Battambang
* 5th Inf Div - Samah
* 18th Inf Div - Samah
* 21st Inf Div - Battambang
* 56th Inf Div - Hiroshima
* 41st Inf Rgt - Samah
* 4th Tk Rgt - Battambang
* 8th Tk Rgt - Battambang
* 9th Tk Rgt - Battambang
* 11th Tk Rgt - Battambang
* 14th Tk Rgt - Battambang

Southern Army:

* 90th Inf Rgt - Babeldaob
* 4th Ind Mixed Rgt - Long Son
* 41st Gd Bn - Saigon
* 1st Raider Rgt - Kompong Trach
* 124th Inf Rgt - Cam Ranh

IJN:

4th Fleet:

* 1st Maizuru Assault Div - Saipan
* 51st Nav Gd - Jaluit
* 52nd Nav Gd - Truk
* 53rd Nav Gd - Kwajalein
* 61st Nav Gd - Jaluit

5th Fleet:

* 2nd China Assault Division - Paramushiro-Jima

Southeast Area Fleet:

* 66th Nav Gd - Babeldaob/Truk
* 1st Ind SNLF Coy - Babeldaob
* 2nd Ind SNLF Coy - Truk
* Bandasan SNLF - Kompong Trach

Southwest Area Fleet:

* 1st Kure Assaault Div - Babeldaob
* 1st Parachute Assault Div - Peleliu

Northeast Area Fleet:

* 7th Inf Div - Asahikawa
* Karafuto Mixed Bde - Ominato

Combined Fleet:

* 6th Ind Inf Bde - Truk
* 1st China Assault Div - Tinian
* 1st Sasebo Assault Div - Saipan
* 15th Nav Gd - Ailinglaplap
* 16th Nav Gd - Samah
* 71st Nav Gd - Jaluit
* 81st Nav Gd - Hanoi/Haipong
* 91st Nav Gd - Cam Ranh Bay
* 1st Sasebo SNLF Coy - Takao
* 2nd Sasebo SNLF Coy - Cam Ranh Bay

NOTES:

* Some units do not start in their usual locations.
* There is an additional Inf Div, the 90th, starting in Tokyo under 16th Army command.
* I did not list artillery units. I did not think necessary, but will do if someone requests them.
* All five tank regiments start the game in Battambang. To me, this is VERY telling.
* Most large LCUs that were under Southern Army command have been assigned to numbered armies.
* The big, fat 7th Inf Div starts in Asahikawa. Its logical target is Alaska. Will John be logical?
* There are 6x IJN Assault Divs from Babeldaob eastwards. They will be able to conquer much, but they do not have the staying power of IJA Inf Divs. How can we capitalize on that?

With John being as aggressive as he is, we need to know where he is going AFTER conquering the Philippines / Malaya / DEI. With the current starting locations, I am afraid there is no way I can defend Burma if that is his target, unless I majorly delay him in Malaya. But an early (not first-turn) invasion of Mersing is very likely, so I am not confident I can do that.

The Allies start with 600 PP, and get 75 more per turn. What should be the priorities for spending them?

[BillBrown]

Well, the HRs are not as bad as I thought they might be.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown
Well, the HRs are not as bad as I thought they might be.

I agree. The are limiting, in their small ways, but they shouldn't decide the course of the game by themselves.

[Kitakami]

Ok... now a look at the IJN:

At start:

CV Akagi, Amagi (81 a/c)
CV Hiryu, Shoryu (63 a/c)
CV Shokaku, Zuikaku (72 a/c)

CVL Ryukaku, Karasu (33 a/c)
CVL Ryujo (39 a/c)
CVL Shoho, Zuiho (31 a/c)

CAV Tokachi, Kashiro (30 a/c - can be converted to CV with 63 a/c from August '42)

CVE Hosho, Ibuki (18 a/c)
CVE Taiyo (27 a/c)

CS Mizuho, Chitose, Chiyoda (24 a/c - can be converted to CVL with 31 a/c from Feb '42)
CS Adatara (12 a/c)

BB Nagato, Mutsu (8x 40cm)
BB Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyuga (12x 36cm)
BB Tosa (10x 40cm)

BC Kongo, Haruna, Hiei, Kirishima (8x 36cm)
BC Ishitaka (10x 40cm)
BC Chichibu (4x 40cm)

CB Fuji, Kita (6x 31cm)

CA Takao, Atago, Maya, Chokai (10x 20cm)
CA Myoko, Haguro, Nachi, Ashigara, Seiki, Chishima, Miyako, Yoshino (10x 20cm)
CA Mogami, Mikuma (10x 20cm)

CL Suzuya, Kumano, Tone, Chikuma (15x 15.5cm - can be converted to Mogami-class CA from Jan '42)
CL Aoba, Kinugasa, Furutaka, Kako (9x 15.5cm - can be converted to CLAA from Feb '42)
CL Nagara, Isuzu, Natori, Yura, Kinu, Abukuma (7x 14cm)
CL Sendai, Naka, Jintsu, Niyodo, Ishikari, Ayase, Otonase, Minase (7x 14cm)
CL Kitakami, Oi, Kiso (40x 61cm Long Lance)
CL Yubari (6x 14cm)
CL Tokoro (9x 15.5cm)

Reinforcements:

CV Junyo, Hiyo (57 a/c)
CV Kaimon, Taikaku (72 a/c)
CV Renkaku, Taiho, Katsuragi, Kasigi (81 a/c)

CVL Nisshin (31 a/c)
CVL Ryuho (31 a/c)
CVL Aso, Shinryu, Unryu, Kurama (36 a/c)

CS Poroshiri, Sukai, Norikura (12 a/c)

BB Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Aki (9x 46cm)

CB Aino, Okuhotaka, Yari, Warusawa (6x 31cm)

CL Teshio, Shirbetsu, Agano, Yahagi, Noshiro, Oyodo, Sakawa (9x 15.5cm)

NOTES:

* John chose the variant with the Yamato-class BBs and the Fuji-class CBs. I think it is an interesting, although suboptimal, choice. I do not think he will build all four monsters but, if he does, they will guzzle up fuel like crazy.
* The cruiser force is much strengthened by the fact that four CLs can be converted to Mogami-class CAs.
* I would not convert the old Aobas and Furutakas to CLAA, but that is me. I think they are the best they ca be, and that is not much, as 9x 15.5cm CLs.
* The Fuji-class pocket battleships are definitely raiders. We will have to be careful not to send unescorted convoys into harm's way.

[BBfanboy]

Odd that he made Tone and Chikuma CLs. Those ships were built as CAs from the start, but with four main gun turrets (all forward) instead of five for the other big Japanese CAs. They had a bit smaller displacement than the Mogami class, so converting Tone and Chikuma to that class is adding tonnage and extra firepower to the IJN. I wonder if the mod will reduce their float plane complement too.

[Kitakami]

In this mod the Tone class does not exist. John used the names so he did not have to come up with new ones. They are Mogami-class vessels, with 5x triple 15.5cm turrets, so no extra float planes. They can be converted to CAs, though. The process takes 75 days in a 25+ size repair yard.

Also, in this mod all the Takao-class ships, not only the Maya, can lose one 2x 20cm turret to gain 4x 10cm AA, starting on April '43. It takes 60 days in a 25+ size repair yard.

I have helped check the database for these Mods on and off for a number of years now. I know the Japanese air and naval side of things passably well, with the exception of the latest changes (the Fuji-class CBs, for example). It is the Allied side of things I need to wrap my head around... and to learn to defend against John's aggressive style. You can see from my handle and pic what side I have usually played in the past

[crsutton]

Sent a note to John and I think he is in agreement. A simple search in Google shows lots of photos of Hellcats and Corsairs operating off of CVEs. Most CVEs were built with catapults and there seems to have been no trouble with them operating these larger aircraft. You should contact him and trash this rule right away. Only thing is that I am not sure if all of the early CVEs had catapults but that would be hard to manage trying to sort them out. A few photos of Helldivers on CVEs but I don't know if they were just being ferried. But they probably could operate on CVEs if the other planes could. I think they used Avengers only because they were plentiful and better suited to multiple roles but this does not mean that they could not have used the Helldiver.

[Falken]

Hi Kitamami,

In the other thread (John's), i've asked crsutton to confirm if he has objections to only the allies side of Rule #6. We use the same rule in our game, so would love to know if my thoughts on the A7M2 or B7A2/3 for the IJN CVEs was incorrect as well.

Dave...

[Kitakami]

Regarding CVEs and the planes they are allowed to fly...

I may have generalized a bit without doing too much research. This is a class by class description:

USN

- Kittyhawk class (Langley, Ely): 1x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 165 m. (total length).
- Long Island class: 1x elevator, 1x catapult, 133 m. flight deck.
- Bogue class: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, 9 arresting wires, 3 barriers, 134 m. flight deck.
- Sangamon class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult (2 after 1944), 153 m. flight deck.
- Casablanca class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult, 9 arresting wires, 3 barriers, 145 m. flight deck.
- Commencement Bay: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, 153 m. flight deck.

So, they all had catapults and elevators, but the flight decks were very short (in comparison, the Lexington had an overall length of 270 meters... 100 meters longer than the Commencement Bay CVEs).

On the other hand, the game has the Casablancas with smaller fighters (FM-1/2), but the Commencement Bays with F6Fs and F4Us. Perhaps this last class should not be under the house rule, for historical reasons.

Thoughts?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

Regarding CVEs and the planes they are allowed to fly...

I may have generalized a bit without doing too much research. This is a class by class description:

USN

- Kittyhawk class (Langley, Ely): 1x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 165 m. (total length).
- Long Island class: 1x elevator, 1x catapult, 123 m. flight deck.
- Bogue class: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, 134 m. flight deck.
- Sangamon class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 169 m. (total length).
- Casablanca class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 156 m. (total length).
- Commencement Bay: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 170 m. (total length).

So, they all had catapults and elevators, but the flight decks were very short (in comparison, the Lexington had an overall length of 270 meters... 100 meters longer than the Commencement Bay CVEs).

On the other hand, the game has the Casablancas with smaller fighters (FM-1/2), but the Commencement Bays with F6Fs and F4Us. Perhaps this last class should not be under the house rule, for historical reasons.

Thoughts?

Or to simplify matter just set a agreed up historical date-say mid 1944 when the Allied CVEs can use these aircraft. Keeping track of single ships would just add to the already heavy logistical burden. I doubt that these 1st line aircraft came into common use until the main carrier TF was well satisfied with their supply.