BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

Regarding CVEs and the planes they are allowed to fly...

I may have generalized a bit without doing too much research. This is a class by class description:

USN

- Kittyhawk class (Langley, Ely): 1x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 165 m. (total length).
- Long Island class: 1x elevator, 1x catapult, 123 m. flight deck.
- Bogue class: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, 134 m. flight deck.
- Sangamon class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 169 m. (total length).
- Casablanca class: 2x elevator, 1x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 156 m. (total length).
- Commencement Bay: 2x elevator, 2x catapult, flight deck length unknown, but less than 170 m. (total length).

So, they all had catapults and elevators, but the flight decks were very short (in comparison, the Lexington had an overall length of 270 meters... 100 meters longer than the Commencement Bay CVEs).

On the other hand, the game has the Casablancas with smaller fighters (FM-1/2), but the Commencement Bays with F6Fs and F4Us. Perhaps this last class should not be under the house rule, for historical reasons.

Thoughts?

Dump the rule because the Allied CVE's did operate the aircraft in question.

Second best:
ORIGINAL: crsutton

Or to simplify matter just set a agreed up historical date-say mid 1944 when the Allied CVEs can use these aircraft.
This is huge IMO. It's one of the reasons I hate some rules like 'sweeps at X maneuver bands' - I just don't want my brain cells trudging through those swamps.
Keeping track of single ships would just add to the already heavy logistical burden.
I doubt that these 1st line aircraft came into common use until the main carrier TF was well satisfied with their supply.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Bearcat2 »

In this alternate scenario, does the US start with reliable torpedo?
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2
In this alternate scenario, does the US start with reliable torpedo?
No.

It would be too lopsided if it was so. Believe me, the Allies do not get it as bad as people think. There are currently two AARs (one mine) that show how the lower experience of Japanese pilots make things complicated for the Empire of the Rising Sun. To sum it up, yes, they have more toys, but they also have less reserves, and they go through them like water, as production has to be increased, and more units consume more supply. In the end, Japan's doom is, in my opinion, the economy, not the tactical side of things, and these mods accelerate the process.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Kitakami
ORIGINAL: Bearcat2
In this alternate scenario, does the US start with reliable torpedo?
No.

It would be too lopsided if it was so. Believe me, the Allies do not get it as bad as people think. There are currently two AARs (one mine) that show how the lower experience of Japanese pilots make things complicated for the Empire of the Rising Sun. To sum it up, yes, they have more toys, but they also have less reserves, and they go through them like water, as production has to be increased, and more units consume more supply. In the end, Japan's doom is, in my opinion, the economy, not the tactical side of things, and these mods accelerate the process.
A lot of mods are like this, mine included. There is far more to build than the economy can support ... more realistic. You have to choose, and then have the self control to not overdo it. Very difficult when the alligators are snapping around your legs and you do in fact need everything ...
So, watch your supply at Tokyo like a hawk and make small moves. Mike style.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by ny59giants »

For Japan, there are extra engineers and engineer vehicles. I got myself into supply trouble by expanding too many bases in Japan in early '42. If Heavy Industry gets too big, there is a drain on fuel. We expanded economic industry in the DEI, but like everything else, there is a balance that you need to achieve. [:-]
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

Ok...

John wrote last night saying that I would get turn one today. So, esteemed Peanut Gallery (TM), how do we defend against him? I think the only relevant house rule would be:

--- 9. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.

Take the following existing TF into consideration:

1. The Indomitable TF (CV, CA, CL, 2x CLAA, 5x DD) and the Valiant & Queen Elizabeth TF (2x BB, CA, 4x DD) TF are at Colombo.
2. Force Z (BB, 2x BC, 3x DD, DM) is at Singapore, ready to sail. So is the lone CL Danae in another TF.
3. The Boise TF (CL, 4x DD) is at Cebu.
4. The Houston & Chicago TF (2x CA, 4x DD) is at Tawi-Tawi.
5. The Marblehead TF (CL, 5x DD) is at Tarakan.
6. A DD TF (4x DD) is at Balikpapan.
7. A DD TF (2x DD) is at Hong Kong.
8. The Charlotte TF (CLV, CA, 3x DD) is at Perth.
9. A CA TF (CA, CL) is at Townsville.
10. The Jacksonville TF (CLV, 2x BC, 2x CA, 6x DD) is at Jarvis Island.
11. The Enterprise TF (CV, 2x CA, 9x DD) is 6 hexes NW of Palmyra.
12. The Lexington TF (CV, 2x CA, 7x DD) is 13 hexes NW of Palmyra.
13. An empty amphibious TF (CA, 2x xAP) is 1 hex E of Vanikoro.
14. The De Ruyter TF (CL, 4x DD) is sailing towards Soerbaja.
15. The Java TF (CL, 2x DD) Java is sailing towards Soerbaja.
16. CL Tromp is sailing towards Soerbaja.
17. CL Leander is at Townsville.
18. CL Dragon & Durban are at Palembang.
19. An empty amphibious TF (CL, 4x DD, 3x xAP, 3x xAK) is at Umnak Island.
20. A loaded amphibious TF (DD, AGP, AP, 3x xAP, 3x xAK) carrying 2x Base Group and 3x Field Arty Bns is at Darwin.

Those are the major naval assets at sea on the first turn. So, the question is... where to fight, and where to flee? Any and all opinions welcome!
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

Also...

I have the turn!
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

Ok... since there were no comments from the Peanut Gallery (TM), I did the best I could, and sent the turn back to John. We will see how we fared.

China, in particular, is a difficult theater. Although in my game with Falken I learned TONS (both of what works and what doesn't), John knows the theater far better than I, and he has an additional infantry division (one of the three the IJA gets from removing a regiment from each of nine square divisions). I have run where I think I should run, I have moved to the mountains and forested rough where possible, and I have moved forward in a couple of places because, frankly, I need the terrain. We will see.

In my game against Falken I landed the 18th British Inf Div in Sumatra, and that has given him about three months worth of headaches. In this game, I do not think they would get there on time (before the invasion of Palembang), so I am considering other destinations. Java, Burma, India, Ceylon all have their good and bad points, so I am not sold on any of them yet.

Northern Australia I am ready to concede... and let it become a supply sink first, and a large POW camp later. SE and NW Australia I will defend with tooth and nail if needed, and I am not letting him have Port Moresby for cheap either.

The one thing that worries me, because I don't have that much to stop John for the time being, is a drive into the SE Pacific. If he decides to move in that direction, and sends at least 2x KB CarDivs, there is not much I can do.

Finally, Alaska. I will defend to the best of my ability, but I will not lose sleep over it. If he gains a foothold (or more than one), I will let it be a secondary (or tertiary) theater until I am ready.

That is all for now. I will write more when I get the combat report.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Canoerebel »

Kitakami, I think lots and lots of Forumites will be following your AAR. And, no doubt, you'll begin to get more and more advice, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, and too often contradictory. It's so early now that it's hard to give advice, so many readers are just waiting a bit to see how things shake out.

For one thing, I'm not very familiar with you as a player. I don't know if you need help tying your shoes or if you've already placed second in the Boston Marathon. So I'm reluctant to weigh in because I don't know how yet. You may be so far ahead of me that anything I had to say would be milk to a man who teethed 25 years ago and likes steak for breakfast.

I'm glad you're doing this AAR!
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by ny59giants »

I will have to limit my comments as I have a game vs njp72 and he is reading your AAR.
Op Sec you know! [:-]
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum
I will have to limit my comments as I have a game vs njp72 and he is reading your AAR.
Op Sec you know! [:-]
Understood! PMs would be much appreciated, though :)
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Kitakami, I think lots and lots of Forumites will be following your AAR. And, no doubt, you'll begin to get more and more advice, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, and too often contradictory. It's so early now that it's hard to give advice, so many readers are just waiting a bit to see how things shake out.

For one thing, I'm not very familiar with you as a player. I don't know if you need help tying your shoes or if you've already placed second in the Boston Marathon. So I'm reluctant to weigh in because I don't know how yet. You may be so far ahead of me that anything I had to say would be milk to a man who teethed 25 years ago and likes steak for breakfast.

I'm glad you're doing this AAR!

Ok... let's see. I am 52, and I cut my teeth on the old AH and SPI games starting at the age of 14, when I gave myself Panzer Leader as a birthday present. I have played UV, WitP and AE on and off for years, and I'd say that I am of middling ability. At least I know enough to know that I need all the help I can get, especially in regard to how John likes to play.

Regarding this scenario, although I do not know everything there is to know about its last iteration, I have been following the development of RA, BtS and BtSL for a time now, and I have checked the Japanese side of the database as thoroughly as I have been able to. I have also made a minor suggestion here and there, some of which have been accepted, most not. Reading the fluff, and looking at the database (and taking notes), it felt like if the Allies can stop Japan from a 1942 auto victory in this scenario, the war will actually be shorter, not longer. That is only a feeling without factual data, but it is the reason that prompted me to play the dark side (the Allies... Japan is totally Jedi ;p).

So, my current mindset is... how can I stop John from auto victory? Because if I am able to do that, I think I will do well in the long run.

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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by jwolf »

In my game against Falken I landed the 18th British Inf Div in Sumatra, and that has given him about three months worth of headaches. In this game, I do not think they would get there on time (before the invasion of Palembang), so I am considering other destinations. Java, Burma, India, Ceylon all have their good and bad points, so I am not sold on any of them yet.

Considering how aggressive John is, IMHO I would not use this division anyplace where it would ultimately be surely trapped. Therefore, I recommend Ceylon or India FWIW.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by witpqs »

In my last game against Andav I sent the 18th to Burma. That worked out quite well at first, but he kept at it and (because they couldn't get away fast enough) eventually mauled the division (or its constituent parts) which was a problem because of the extremely low British infantry squad replacement rate. Not sure where you should send it but that's data for you.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

@ jwolf, witpqs: thank you. Yes, I am seriously considering the division's safety as very important in this game.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by BillBrown »

Don't worry Kitakami, we will be there to help. It is very hard to give turn 1 advice. It looks like
you took care of things fine. Until you see where John is headed you have to keep many options open and
try to not take too many losses. Once you know where KB and associates are, you can see about jabbing back.

I tend to move the British 18th Division to India to help with the defense.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

John will run the turn tonight, and send me the combat report. I will post something between then and receiving turn 2, I think. Then the dreaded Allied turn 2. More tedious (but more forgiving) than Japanese turn 1.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

John will run the turn tonight, and send me the combat report. I will post something between then and receiving turn 2, I think. Then the dreaded Allied turn 2. More tedious (but more forgiving) than Japanese turn 1.
Far more forgiving ... [8D]
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by Kitakami »

A day that will live in infamy!!!! (post 1 of several)

Ok... first the bad news, then the really bad news.

The sneak attack in Pearl Harbour went rather well for the IJN. DD Washington was sunk, BB Mississippi might follow lead, and damage to the other battle wagons was hefty. Besides that, DM Pruitt was also sunk.

This is the detailed report:

Japanese aircraft
***** A6M2 Zero x 100
***** B5N2 Kate x 132
***** D3A1 Val x 102

Allied aircraft
***** P-36A Mohawk x 2
***** P-40B Warhawk x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
***** B5N2 Kate: 31 damaged
***** B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed by flak
***** D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
***** P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed
***** P-36A Mohawk: 5 destroyed on ground
***** P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
***** P-40B Warhawk: 4 destroyed on ground
***** B-18A Bolo: 5 destroyed on ground
***** PBY-5 Catalina: 3 destroyed on ground
***** B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
***** A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
***** BB Washington, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
***** BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
***** BB California, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
***** BB Idaho, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
***** BB New Mexico, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
***** BB Nevada, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
***** BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1
***** DM Pruitt, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
***** BB Mississippi, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
***** CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
***** BB Arizona, Torpedo hits 4, heavy damage
***** AVD Thornton, Bomb hits 1, on fire
***** CM Oglala, Bomb hits 1
***** CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
***** DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 1
***** CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
***** CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 1
***** AV Curtiss, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
***** SS Flying Fish, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
***** SS Manatee, Bomb hits 1

Repair Shipyard hits 12
Airbase hits 30
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 59
Port hits 25
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2

And this is the damage report from the game. Airframe losses feel light, although facilities were greatly damaged, which makes me fear a second day of attacks...

Port Damage: 20
Airfield Service Damage: 29
Airfield Runway Damage: 48



Image

EDIT: Please note the position of the 2x KB CarDiv EAST of PH. Not a position to go CV hunting, I guess.
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RE: BTS/BTSL against John 3rd: What was Kitakami thinking?!?!?!?

Post by BillBrown »

Well, the bad news isn't too bad, yet. I agree that your airframe losses are light, that will be useful, especially the Cats.
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