Sub Activites--random thoughts

[Sniper31]

Well, I am now very curious to see how you do Doug.I don't yet have Silent Service, so I cannot attempt this scenario myself. But, I now have a vested interest in seeing you succeed with this one. So, I'm rooting for you [:D]

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: DWReese
The bottom line for this seems to be LUCK.

NOW AUDITIONING LUCKY PEOPLE!!!

Contact me privately. Lottery winners preferred.

[DWReese]

Unfortunately, part of penetrating a sonobuoy field is just luck. I read somewhere that there was a Pacific submarine admiral who, when interviewing prospective captains said, "If you're not lucky we don't need you."

That is definitely true.

[DWReese]

But, I now have a vested interest in seeing you succeed with this one.

Well, in Silent Service "Gamechanger" scenario, the a/c were land-based, so there is a window of opportunity that presents itself. But, one of the problems that arises is that the sonobouys last approximately 90 minutes, so even if the a/c is gone, the sonobouys can still detect the presence of the sub. The sonobouys are dropped in a line which sets up an almost impossible situation of being able to cross the line without being detected. If detected, then the sub is dead.

The TG is moving at a pretty decent pace, so that helps. If the sonobouys aren't present, then you can achieve success.

If you play the scenario straight up, without using the Editor to spy on what's going on behind the scene, then it takes lots of LUCK. You don't know WHEN the a/c will return, or IF the sonobouys are still present when your slow-moving sub (which is in the path of the TG) comes into attack range. If you happen to hit the window just right, then you can be successful. You will still likely be killed because of all of the escorts, but you can destroy the main target.

If (and this is the more likely scenario) your sub enters the attack area with the sonobouys present, then you will be killed.

Statistically, I managed to kill the main target twice, but lost my sub each time. On eight other occasions, I was killed before getting close to the TG because of the presence of the existing sonobouys.

So, 8 of 10 times I was destroyed without getting off a shot. It appears that LUCK is the most important aspect.

Regarding Northern Fury scenario "X-Ray Station", the situation is pretty much the same. The sonobouy lines will result in an almost impregnable situation of being able to approach the targets without being detected. There are so many sonobouys. After numerous attempts, it was obvious that the detection occurs when the sub crosses the line of sonobouys, so I tried a different approach after losing with every other method. I merely stopped all of the subs from moving, and prayed that no new sonobouy lines happen to be dropped on my stationary position. If that occurred, then the sub was destroyed. If the sub wasn't destroyed, it then has to hope that the target COMES to them. That only happened once for me.

Results from Northern Fury: If I moved the subs, then they were destroyed before they could destroy anything. If I stayed stationary, then only once did a ship come close enough to get a shot off, but I rarely lost a sub. This scenario is one of the most difficult scenarios that I have ever seen. Again, it seems as though LUCK determines pretty much everything.

Doug

[HaughtKarl]

This guy is an ex-sonarman who served on 688's and he often mentions interesting tidbits during his streams, but the one that stood out was that they could hear dropped sonobuoys splash into the water by MPAs. Hearing the splashes gave them enough info to plot out and steer clear of the sonobuoy field.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9bMgC ... M5dQ/about

[DWReese]

Hearing the splashes gave them enough info to plot out and steer clear of the sonobuoy field.

Thinks for the video. It was very interesting.

What he says seems completely plausible. I doubt that that has been modeled into the game, but I don't know for sure.

From looking at the battery life of the sonobouys in this scenario (90 minutes), it's possible that you may be quite a distance away 90 minutes later.

Doug

[SeaQueen]

What he says seems completely plausible. I doubt that that has been modeled into the game, but I don't know for sure.

One thing the game doesn't do very well is model transient noises like splashes.

[Cik]

rabble rabble model splashes rabble rabble model signature flares from missile launches rabble rabble flaming datum for SAMs and sonobuoys rabble rabble

[Dimitris]

[Dimitris]

I _think_ we already model a visual/IR spike for missile boost phase, but I'll check. Sonobuoy splashes and other transients is something we'd definitely like to include.

[TyphoonFr]

In X-Ray Station, even if you know where they are, the question is, where to go to avoid them.[&:]
Only 4h and already more than 1,500 sonobuoy dropped.

[BDukes]

Issue might be unlimited natures of bouy deployments. Does datalinks restrict what sonobouys are see plus communicates? Perhaps fix there. Maybe comms active bouys and comms inactive.

Maybe suggest implementing sonobouy logistics so player/designer reserve. Most dump 15 day sea supply in a day. Could be design issue but need way to restrict.

Hope this help

[Cik]

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

I _think_ we already model a visual/IR spike for missile boost phase, but I'll check. Sonobuoy splashes and other transients is something we'd definitely like to include.

that might be, but mostly what i'm referring to are "flaming datum" style contact generation from known missile origin points.

in historical scenarios it's a real pain in the neck when you get MANPAD/SHORAD shots, you can see the missiles and the launch sites (and the giant white smoketrail connecting them) but the origin points themselves are effectively invisible as your sensors are primitive and it's hard to get close.

you can sometimes just BOL them to death (weapons permitting) but otherwise you are stuck with being unable to see them as they constantly shoot you.

likewise for iron-sighted guns (with tracers) sure, the gun is very hard to see esp. when camo'ed against the terrain, but there is a giant stream of bullets flying. i may not have a perfect idea of where the gun is, but i at least know there is a gun and he's "somewhere over there"

anyway just food for thought.

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Issue might be unlimited natures of bouy deployments. Does datalinks restrict what sonobouys are see plus communicates? Perhaps fix there. Maybe comms active bouys and comms inactive.

That's actually a really good point. Most aircraft can only monitor so many sonobuoys at once. They're limited by the number of channels on the aircraft and by the radio line of sight. One of the advantages of the P-8 is that it flies higher and has more channels so it can monitor more sonobuoys at once than the P-3 which is most efficient at low altitude and has fewer channels.

[Sigma8510]

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Issue might be unlimited natures of bouy deployments. Does datalinks restrict what sonobouys are see plus communicates? Perhaps fix there. Maybe comms active bouys and comms inactive.

That's actually a really good point. Most aircraft can only monitor so many sonobuoys at once. They're limited by the number of channels on the aircraft and by the radio line of sight. One of the advantages of the P-8 is that it flies higher and has more channels so it can monitor more sonobuoys at once than the P-3 which is most efficient at low altitude and has fewer channels.

I was thinking the same. Channel capacity and line of sight would be factors to consider I would think. Also, is bouy battery life taken into account in game? Can’t remember if I read that somewhere. That is an awful lot of buoys in that screenshot.[X(]

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: Sigma8510
I was thinking the same. Channel capacity and line of sight would be factors to consider I would think. Also, is bouy battery life taken into account in game? Can’t remember if I read that somewhere. That is an awful lot of buoys in that screenshot.[X(]

It is, but whether you believe the battery life they use is a different question. There's also other limitations besides battery life.

Honestly, there's a lot of things they get wrong about sonobuoys. They're way optimistic about some things, and other things they decided were unimportant are actually SUPER important, but even if they're unclassified, since they don't get mentioned in popular media much, they don't fit into most people's vision of ASW, so it's easy to see how their set of priorities might be different from an operator's. I think for the purposes of a fun game, the sonobuoy model is fine as is. They got maybe the 50%-75% correct solution. MPA is still one of the most powerful ASW platforms in the game. I never have enough of them in my scenarios. That's how it should be.

For the purposes of trying to duplicate actual MPA tactics in detail, though, there's still a long way to go. There's the issues I mentioned above, regarding LOS and signal processing considerations. There's also the lack of multistatics. The Navy is doing so much stuff with multistatic sonars of various sorts these days. Real ASW is very technical and depends a lot on the details of signal processing, oceanography, acoustics, etc. Since it is so technical, within the scope of the game, it's hard to figure out where to draw the line and say, "we'll model it at this level, but not this level..." It'd be very easy to turn the game into a university level electrical engineering exam, but that's not really the goal either.

[DWReese]

I just finished another trial of Northern Fury, X-Ray Station. This is not intended to be a spoiler as the scenario has been out for several years, and I did not really do anything other than set all of the subs to a speed of zero, and leave them in their exact starting position.

I figured that not moving gave me a better chance of still detecting something that came by, while not accidentally stumbling into a Passive sonobouy. That strategy worked somewhat. I was never detected by a sonobouy. I did have, however, two subs that were detected and destroyed by two helos using a MAD sensor. In each case the helo flew within 1.3 miles of my position, located the sub, and destroyed it without me knowing anything until it was too late. The torp was dropped directly on top of my sub, so there was no place to run.

All five of the NATO subs gain points by detecting the enemy. I'm sure that if I moved them about that they would have had a greater chance of locating more of the enemy than I did, but I would also run the risk of certainly being detected.

I scored 260 points for IDing numerous enemy ships, but lost 100 (50 each) because I had two subs destroyed. I ended up with an Average score of 160 points. Had I not lost the two subs I would have attained a Minor Victory.

I saved the game at one point and separately tried to attack an unsuspecting passing sub that had not detected me. I attempted to fire from a distance of 6 nm, and I then tried to turn and run. The enemy sub managed to escape, and it brought down the entire wrath of the enemy on top of me. My sub was destroyed immediately as it was detected by what seemed like 100 sonobouys and about three a/c in the vicinity. So, not knowing what is above you is very dangerous. (Note: On another occasion I went to periscope depth to "see" what was above me and was destroyed shortly thereafter because my periscope had been detected by a/c in the area. So, I knew that that strategy had not worked.)

The scenario is an interesting one, but actually moving will be much more realistic, but it will likely result in the loss of your subs as they will be detected for sure.

I would recommend that you give it a try.

Doug

[Gunner98]

Hay guys just picking up this thread. A couple points on X-Ray station.

This scenario was built well before some major improvements in the game wrt subs and sonars etc - so it's a bit dated and I need to get back in and adjust it. But:


-As some of you know I values story lines in my scenarios and not all situations are easily winnable, particularly on the first run. I try and adjust the victory levels to reflect this and in this scenario, as NATO you don't need to fire a single torpedo to win. In fact if you do you will probably lose.

-From the Soviet standpoint in the first hours of a gambit for national survival, they will make every effort to sanitize the area off their coast. They have the resources (I'm not sure about the unlimited sonobouys - that's a good point), they have the time to plan and they have the motivation. They know that the US and UK have subs up in these waters and they are not happy about it.

-We've had to cut some scenes out of the book and a couple come from the action on X-Ray station, we may be able to get one of them out as a cutting room floor blog. But the story in the book is similar to those told in the thread so far.

-So its meant to be a very tough situation, it needs some adjustment but it will not be an easy scenario. But it's an important one from a story point of view.


I'm really glad people are still playing it.

Cheers

B

[DWReese]

Hi Bart,

Yes, I'm still making my way through Northern Fury. I had to come back to X-Ray Station because I failed so miserably before.

I did discover that it isn't really an Allied shooting scenario. I also discovered that you can get into lots of trouble just by moving around and coming into range of the passive sonobouys. So, it's better to stay put and let the enemy come to you.

The main concern that I have from this is not with the scenario itself. My biggest concern is with the MAD detectors. (Again, it's not you.) The MAD detectors will hit on any sub within 1.3 nm of the a/c flying overhead, all the way down to the ocean floor, regardless of how deep. I'm not sure that this is how it is really supposed to work, but I don't know for sure. I would appreciate it if you could check this out and possibly pass your findings along to the developers.

As mentioned previously, using your scenario, I lost two of the five subs, even though they never even moved one inch, because a MAD sensor flew overhead and detected them in 984 feet of water. Is that really how it should work? Does depth play any role with MAD? If so, I don't know why they would ever want to get away from MAD because it appears to be an omnipotent sensor.

Thanks again.

To everyone else, I would highly recommend the Northern Fury scenarios. They are fantastic!

Doug

[BDukes]

HaHa Smoug at it agains!

My kid call guy who use glitches to win, glitch biatches! I think funny but maybe not to serious Wargame crowders. Sorry if so.

Here last discussion on MAD. Probably infos here.

tm.asp?m=4167128

Maybe 3 issues too dive into and assign priority

1- 0 sub speeds and detection
2- MAD detection limitation
3- Sonobouy limitations

Best to make three post support with files Dougs! Not try and make scenario guy advocates:)

Hope helps

BD