Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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warspite1
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: spence

IIRC, the Regia Marina suffered from a severe shortage of fuel oil.
warspite1

I re-present Post 82 from this thread earlier.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

True or False, the Fuel oil situation cramped the RM actions?
warspite1

True that oil was limited but mostly False that RM operations were 'cramped'.

In assessing the performance of the RM, just as with any branch or service, the whole picture needs to be looked at. But before I comment on that general question I first want to cover Dilli’s response:
ORIGINAL: Dilli

Yes since begin of 1942. It was practically the last time big ships went of to sea.

[/quote]warspite1

.....is of course simply not true.

The Second Battle of Sirte (March 1942) featured Littorio.

The ‘Imperial balls-up’ that was the Vigorous convoy (June 1942) was mauled by the Luftwaffe but would still have been a success had it not been for the Italian ships that put to sea – including both Littorios.

It was the RM’s decision not to include the Littorios in Pedestal (August 1942) due to a shortage of oil (although as Bagnasco points out, there was an emergency supply and what exactly were they saving their untouchable reserve for if not a major operation like this?). However it was not just oil that was a problem – the RM was running out of destroyers.

The ‘big ships’, now joined by Roma, still put to sea for gunnery exercises periodically from the autumn of 1942 and numerous times during the first eight months of 1943. But they were held back from intervening in French North Africa or Sicily. These were decisions made by Supermarina - not by oil. By the time the US joined the Mediterranean war, the chances of utilising the big ships to good effect quickly diminished oil or no oil. There was still a plan to use the fleet in one final do or die operation against Allied shipping but the armistice ended that plan.

So while oil was in short supply (see below) the idea that the RM's big ships practically never put to sea from the beginning of 1942 is patently false.

To return to the True or False question.

Italy joined the war with a known oil position, namely that her navy would have around 12 months of reserves. Thereafter it is not true that they would have no oil and indeed the RM kept an emergency supply (the so called untouchable stocks) in hand at all times. Apart from this stock, the RM would instead have to seek hand to mouth supplies from the Germans – and which it did.

Of course what '12 months reserve' means in practice depends on what the RM decided to do with that oil and their management of expenditure. The profligate use of oil in the first 12 months (in which the fleet was often put to sea but with no tangible results) was a mistake and in choosing to use their reserves in that way, impacts negatively on any assessment of performance, i.e. the shortage of oil cannot be brushed aside as though it was beyond RM control. As said repeatedly, the RM had the central position, they could pick their battles with the aim of making them count. Instead the fleet kept putting to sea, burning precious oil. That was their decision. Given that oil was at a premium, one is entitled to ask what was the point of putting to sea for the operation that led to Spartivento (for example) only to refuse to sail for the enemy initially despite having (what Campioni believed at that time) to be superior forces? And then, despite his cruisers having made contact with the enemy, to refuse to come to their aid and continue sailing away with his battleships.

As noted previously however, discussing the big ships alone is too limiting. During RN convoy operations to Malta the biggest opportunity for the cruisers, destroyers, submarines and torpedo boats was in the confined waters around Sicily and Malta. The British did not send their capital ships into these waters (apart from a few risky end-to-end operations – none of which happened after May 1941 iirc). But the performance of the RM's smaller units was not up to scratch - and when improvements came along by 1942, the chances to destroy the convoys and their escorts was not taken.

So oil is often mentioned in any debate about the RM. Did oil have an effect on operations? Not in the first 12 months and I cannot recall a major operation that the RM refused because there was no oil. That said, the older battleships were not included in many operations because of oil. The operations in 1942 mentioned above were carried out in response to British convoy operations. Were there offensive operations that could have been carried out but were not because of a lack of oil? Well that is impossible to know with certainty, but given the RM track record, it is unlikely. Even when oil was available the RM tended to limit their operations (outside of those to protect convoys to North Africa) either because a) air cover was not guaranteed b) they did not trust the Germans to be able to differentiate between RM ships those of the RN. The latter was the reason given for the no-show by the RM during the Crete evacuation. Imagine what the RM could have achieved then, in conjunction with the damage and losses caused by the Luftwaffe.

Was the oil position known to Italy? Yes. Did they manage their oil according to the position they were in? No. Most importantly, did the lack of oil actually stop the RM from more aggressive action against the RN? No, it was the orders given to the commanders and the timidity of the commanders at sea. Once the USN and of course the USAAF entered stage left, no amount of oil was going to allow the three Littorios (when they weren’t being damaged by air raids) to do anything other than die had they put to sea.

The time to hurt the over-stretched RN was in 1941 with the arrival of the Luftwaffe and with the oil available for use. The RM did not. The rest is history.


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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Andrea G »

I would like to add another grain to the discussion; it's true that the problems of the RM were the brains not the arms; timidity of action came from the directive of Supermarina to the sailing admirals; as a late example, after the fall of Tunisi, at least Mussolini and probably also Comando Supremo (not 100% sure of the latter) asked RM to prepare a "suicide" operation with all the ships still afloat to counter the expected invasion of Sicily.
It would be like the last mission of the Yamato; obviously Supermarina refused with the oil excuse, even if the untouchable reserve was still present; in reality the high brass of the Regia Marina were already seeing the fleet and expecially the surviving BB's as a bargaining object in the upcoming armistice talk with the Allies.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: Andrea G

I would like to add another grain to the discussion; it's true that the problems of the RM were the brains not the arms; timidity of action came from the directive of Supermarina to the sailing admirals; as a late example, after the fall of Tunisi, at least Mussolini and probably also Comando Supremo (not 100% sure of the latter) asked RM to prepare a "suicide" operation with all the ships still afloat to counter the expected invasion of Sicily.
It would be like the last mission of the Yamato; obviously Supermarina refused with the oil excuse, even if the untouchable reserve was still present; in reality the high brass of the Regia Marina were already seeing the fleet and expecially the surviving BB's as a bargaining object in the upcoming armistice talk with the Allies.
warspite1

Hi Andrea G, yes I'm sure while a suicide mission may sound very noble in theory, in practice, probably not so much.

That said, for a country that in many respects resembled an island - thanks to its positioning and they way it jutted out from the belly of Europe (it needed at least four amphibious invasions to conquer), I still find it incomprehensible that O'Hara sees it as a positive that the RM didn't get destroyed like the IJN or Kriegsmarine.

To be defending an effective island and have your country conquered whilst your navy remains largely intact is NOT actually anything to be proud of......
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

To be defending an effective island and have your country conquered whilst your navy remains largely intact is NOT actually anything to be proud of......

Well, during WWII when you lot were overrun with Yanks and effectively conquered, your vaunted RN was largely intact, eh? [;)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

To be defending an effective island and have your country conquered whilst your navy remains largely intact is NOT actually anything to be proud of......

Well, during WWII when you lot were overrun with Yanks and effectively conquered, your vaunted RN was largely intact, eh? [;)]
warspite1

Lol [:)]

Well, by June 1942 (approx the halfway stage of WWII) and as the arrival of the friends from the New World was just starting to get into gear, in defending the UK, trying to keep the sea lanes open for its own survival, trying to keep the sea lanes open to aid the USSR's survival, in trying to keep hold of Egypt/Malta, in trying to take the war to the Axis, in trying to save the army in Norway, France (twice), Greece, Crete and Singapore the Royal Navy had suffered huge losses and many more ships damaged. Not including countless corvettes, minesweepers, ASW trawlers, MTB's and other smaller craft the RN had lost:

4 Aircraft Carriers
3 Battleships
2 Battlecruisers
5 Heavy Cruisers
16 Light Cruisers
1 Monitor
1 Escort Carrier
92 Destroyers
46 Submarines

Apart from those 170 major warships yes, completely intact.... One wonders how much worse that roll call would have been had the Regia Marina fought with similar intensity, grim determination to get the job done and vigour in the Mediterranean. And I don't doubt the bravery and courage of the individual Italian sailor, but the lack of foresight, the lack of application and the fear of the Royal Navy's reputation (rather than its actual position) of those higher up the food chain.

Instead, just over a year later, Italy was invaded (the first of four such) and yet O'Hara believes its a positive that the Regia Marina was largely intact at the time of surrender.....

Okay.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

Sorry I must have dozed off. Is this still a review of In Passage Perilous or are you now doing The Neverending Story?










[:)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

The post above was edited to add a Smiley for you, just in case.










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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Kursk1943 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Sorry I must have dozed off. Is this still a review of In Passage Perilous or are you now doing The Neverending Story?

[:)]




Ohterwise as a representative of the bad guys I'd better stay out of the discussion to avoid
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Sorry I must have dozed off. Is this still a review of In Passage Perilous or are you now doing The Neverending Story?

[:)]
warspite1

Dozed off? Don't worry its probably an age thing. You'll find bits starting to fall off and others refusing to work. It's all part of the process no need for concern.

As to what this is, its only been half a dozen posts or so do keep up (or maybe this is evidence to further my comment above [;)]).

a) My initial post should have been clear. I'd read a book recently that brought to my mind one of O'Hara's rather disappointing assertions from In Passage Perilous. I enjoyed the book, fancied giving it a little plug while at the same time putting just a little more context on O'Hara's unfortunate grasp of aspects of the Mediterranean War.

b) In response there was a comment from spence on Italy and their oil position so I simply re-iterated an earlier post - nothing new required or provided.

c) Andrea G then added a comment on the RM which, because I love discussing all things WWII, I was happy to add a comment on - again in the context of O'Hara's book.

d) Chickenboy then added a post about the RN being largely intact as the UK was being 'overrun' and I thought I would use that post to make further critical comment on O'Hara's (in my view) muddled thinking.

The Neverending Story? I hope so [:)], but probably not [:(]......

Anyway, I need a bit of a nap after all that excitement.....
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by BBfanboy »

Napping while on duty with salvos of torpedoes coming at you? How very Royal Oak of you! [:D]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Napping while on duty with salvos of torpedoes coming at you? How very Royal Oak of you! [:D]
warspite1

Poor old tart. Another 833 (mostly) young men lost thanks to inadequate attention being paid to enemy threats, combined with an audacious, brave and resourceful u-boat commander.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by rustysi »

Another 833 (mostly) young men lost thanks to inadequate attention being paid to enemy threats,

Don't ya just love those naysayers. Can't happen. Scappa, Taranto, Pearl....[8|]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Sorry I must have dozed off. Is this still a review of In Passage Perilous or are you now doing The Neverending Story?

[:)]




Ohterwise as a representative of the bad guys I'd better stay out of the discussion to avoid
warspite1

Mmmmm.... not really sure what that means.

The OP invited discussion on the performance of the Regia Marina in World War II. His question about the RM arose from reading a book, In Passage Perilous, by the naval historian O'Hara.

For my part, the discussion that followed rejected in large part (though by no means entirely), O'Hara's conclusions about RM performance in World War II - and in so doing, praised the German armed forces (in this case the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine) as it was almost entirely their efforts - and not the RM or Regia Aeronautica - that caused the British so much trouble in the Mediterranean war.

Without knowing what you would have had to add to the discussion I can't say much more, but if you believe you would receive on the strength of being from Bavaria, well I don't really know what more to say other than that is all a little disappointing....
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
a) My initial post should have been clear. I'd read a book recently that brought to my mind one of O'Hara's rather disappointing assertions from In Passage Perilous. I enjoyed the book, fancied giving it a little plug while at the same time putting just a little more context on O'Hara's unfortunate grasp of aspects of the Mediterranean War....
...originally being discussed two and half years ago. Hence the joke about The Neverending Story and dozing off in between your posts complaining about O'Hara. And my reward for that effort then is you defensively firing bullet points at me from your rusty old pop-guns. Some things never change.[:'(]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: warspite1
a) My initial post should have been clear. I'd read a book recently that brought to my mind one of O'Hara's rather disappointing assertions from In Passage Perilous. I enjoyed the book, fancied giving it a little plug while at the same time putting just a little more context on O'Hara's unfortunate grasp of aspects of the Mediterranean War....
...originally being discussed two and half years ago. Hence the joke about The Neverending Story and dozing off in between your posts complaining about O'Hara. And my reward for that effort then is you defensively firing bullet points at me from your rusty old pop-guns. Some things never change.[:'(]
warspite1

1. One would hate

2. To disappoint

[:)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Looking forward to this - just ordered. Interesting time in the Med war....

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by John 3rd »

My Christmas purchases from Santa are:

In Passage Perilous by O'Hara
Scratch One Flattop by Stern
Six Victories by O'Hara
Freudenberg's Churchill and Australia
Eagles Over the Sea--1935-42 by Paterson

They are wrapped and will be placed under the tree for Christmas.

Thanks for the advice on some of these. YUMMY!
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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ORIGINAL: John 3rd

My Christmas purchases from Santa are:

In Passage Perilous by O'Hara
Scratch One Flattop by Stern
Six Victories by O'Hara
Freudenberg's Churchill and Australia
Eagles Over the Sea--1935-42 by Paterson

They are wrapped and will be placed under the tree for Christmas.

Thanks for the advice on some of these. YUMMY!
warspite1

Too many books, too little time....[:)]

I would be interested to hear what you think of Scratch One Flattop after you've read it John 3rd.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

And just a general recommendation for the O'Hara list...

His 2007 book "The US Navy against the Axis" is an excellent work giving short but concise narratives and analyses of some 40 Pacific surface engagements involving USN vs IJN warships (and also one involving an action off Casablanca against the Vichy French despite them not really qualifying as Axis).

Overall, it's a great reference for getting an understanding of how surface combat was being fought during the Pacific War as well as the evolving capabilities of the USN over time.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by John 3rd »

I will read it first then. LOVE the First Team books and Scratch One Flattop will cover that area. Looking forward to it.

Am having to bone up on my Med knowledge right now so that is why most of the reading list comes from there.
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