Sub war

[Journier]

So to continue this discussion on subs, with patch 1.04c by october 1940 against elite difficulty AI.

i have 28 escorts now, from the starting 12?

and the germans are in pain with their sub war. Im not even sending out the carriers to go chase them around anymore.

UK has lost gasp 40 merchants, big number there, 400 production worth of merchants. hard to come back from? not really.




As you can see now, the germans have lost 19 subs to escorts now. thats huge. thats 5 subs = sub wolf pack, they are barely getting a 1-1 ratio for production/repair cost for commerce raiding.

The germans are boned, and i dont even have long range anti sub bombers yet.

[AlbertN]

What worries me is the amount of Merchant Marine Germany lost instead... but I take they've not disabled their convoy in Winter Times. (I rest in my case surface ships entering Norway waterways should consist of a declaration of war. Just because 1 DD did it it doesn't mean that the whole of the Royal Navy can just go saunter there nilly-willy).

There should be a trigger that if Surface Ships go raid out of Norway it's a declaration of war - exactly as if German ships would get to raid an USA East Coast while USA is neutral.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

What worries me is the amount of Merchant Marine Germany lost instead... but I take they've not disabled their convoy in Winter Times. (I rest in my case surface ships entering Norway waterways should consist of a declaration of war. Just because 1 DD did it it doesn't mean that the whole of the Royal Navy can just go saunter there nilly-willy).

There should be a trigger that if Surface Ships go raid out of Norway it's a declaration of war - exactly as if German ships would get to raid an USA East Coast while USA is neutral.

oh I agree it should be a declaration of war. and since germany has no convoys, once you destroy these, they need to build more. and a fleet placed on norway coast will easily kill 10 convoys a turn.

[battlevonwar]

You really think Norway would DOW the UK over sinking their merchant vessels? They would probably stop running them and be really upset. When your giving your enemy iron ore though...you pay the fee...

P.S. U-boats are not a wise investment in the current META As far as I can tell. I wouldn't put money there as our returns aren't good enough. Would be interesting to see if someone could make a run of it?

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

You really think Norway would DOW the UK over sinking their merchant vessels? They would probably stop running them and be really upset. When your giving your enemy iron ore though...you pay the fee...

P.S. U-boats are not a wise investment in the current META As far as I can tell. I wouldn't put money there as our returns aren't good enough. Would be interesting to see if someone could make a run of it?

against the AI on elite+ difficulty in 1.04c beta patch, subs are viable, i think i sank 250 merchantmen with 10 subs, in 2 groups of 5 last playthrough from 1939-45

to put it into perspective, i put like 1000 production points into submarines for germany, and sank 2500 points of merchants however in 1944, the escorts were definitely starting to hurt me more, my subs kept taking damage every time out.

Against a human who could pump all production into escorts to counter it I am not sure too risky in pbem.

[jjdenver]

Is there a way for GE to just turn off convoys from Sweden or Norway to avoid taking raider losses to their MM?

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Is there a way for GE to just turn off convoys from Sweden or Norway to avoid taking raider losses to their MM?

yes you can turn off a convoy in the convoy screen by clicking the check mark

[battlevonwar]

Journier: Interesting! Though as complex as this game is I doubt that a Human would let you get away with that. My thought is also the trade 1000 points into Subs vs 2500 points on merchants downed. Is that a good trade for a Human vs Human? A human will use his Carriers more wisely likely get some lucky kills that an AI player won't. A human may use range and strike your subs/ports/etc.. kill those subs. ASW, Range, etc... Meanwhile the USSR needs a paddling depending on your strategy and that's expensive.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Journier: Interesting! Though as complex as this game is I doubt that a Human would let you get away with that. My thought is also the trade 1000 points into Subs vs 2500 points on merchants downed. Is that a good trade for a Human vs Human? A human will use his Carriers more wisely likely get some lucky kills that an AI player won't. A human may use range and strike your subs/ports/etc.. kill those subs. ASW, Range, etc... Meanwhile the USSR needs a paddling depending on your strategy and that's expensive.

I think i stated this in my post as well regarding humans, not arguing that... everything you achieve in AI game is different from against a human we agree. however, for balance comparisons vs other patches i had never had a successful U boat campaign to 1943 or later before. The subs were far too expensive, thereby costing more to repair thereby bringing your tank build up to a halt.

Regarding counter - ASW bombers really put a hamper on subs, as well as carriers when they get a lucky asw hit (carriers have terrible ability to land ASW hits or something but when they do they hurt usually, knocking the subs out for a turn -2 turns to repair.