2x3+ Team Side Game - BOTH SIDES

[topeverest]

You DEFINATELY have a skill in cartography in addition to story telling and of course game skill. Thanks for helping me imagine a better way to tell the AAR story.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: topeverest
This is an awesome bit of cartography.

Cheers! It is funny how wargmaing has led me on to learning how to use all these image editing programs! Have to give a lot of thanks to Crackaces, Wixit and now Beria for the things they have taught me and are teaching me now.

Feast your eyes on the one in the link below ("Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective Look at Economic War in 1941 - post 428)

fb.asp?m=4484496

I would say that is the one I am proudest of ever having done.

[topeverest]

Help me understand the thought process of expending large numbers of forces in defense of Moscow and Leningrad.

ORIGINAL: Beria

T012 Soviet

Soviet South Commander
Tula ... still has all of it's Industry... I just did a calculation of the effective Industry we have left: the doomed Industry of Moscow, Kalinin, Leningrad and Poltava adds up to 28 Armaments and 17 Heavy Industry that is beyond saving. That means our effective Industry is 259 Armaments and 172 Heavy Industry.

I take the post by Stelteck as a reference to how much Industry must be saved.

Stelteck
Armament points needs are vastly overestimated by everyone, except in late 1941 for a brief period, you will never have enough men to use your armament point production. I think you can probably drop to 200, something like that.

Supply point (heavy industry) is another matter. As you save a lots of troops ... you will need a lots of supply points...I did a game once with 180 HI saved and it was a little low. I had briefly a supply shortage end 1942. Fortunately the new HI production factor in 1943 solved it.

in other words, I feel we are losing to much H.Industry in order to supply our future Red army.
I propose we give immediate priority for Heavy Industry, any that are at risk to the enemy should be evacuated at once and be given priority for transport, even above reinforcements for the Central front.

as for Tula, I propose to move 6 divisions to protect the approaches to Tula, 2 tank Div. 2 Cav. Div. and 2 Inf. Div, there is minimal risk encountering a motorize division in this area, at least for turn 13.

if a German unit get's in contact with the city (regardless if it can storm the city or not) the Industry will cost double to evacuate. normal cost is 4800 * 25 = 120 000!!, considering that the Soviets, especial now with out Moscow and Leningrad get like what? 100K-120K rail points? the normal amount is already high, double that and boom, 240 000 points, if we wanted to save the Industry, we would waste all of our rail points just to save less then half.

that is why I stress that we protect the outskirts of Tula until we evacuated most of the armaments. if we want a competitive 1942, we should save as much as we can...

...in my humble opinion, if we could save at least 15 armaments, 15*4800 = 72000, I say it would be [ac]ceptable to abandon the city.

...in the Tula case, its more a battle of Movement points rather then fire power. the Germans at the closest point, will have to cross a large river, so by the time they came close to the forest, the infantry could only do Hasty attacks

I'm counting on every mobile division being at work around Moscow. this plan is only for this turn, the city can be abandon in the next turn.

...I believe this will protect the Industry for little cost. I will have to do something similar for Voronezh, let's see if the cities of Yaroslavl, Ivanovo and Rebinsk (near the Rebinsk res.) can be protected for 2 more turns.)

Soviet Centre Commander
I can delay the retreat, but then I will not be able to form the defensive line in time as ordered, at least the southern part of it... On second thought may I recommend giving that order after the Fascists have made their move? It doesn't look like their forces are very strong in the Tula region, perhaps they will make only light advances there.

Soviet Supreme Commander
10th Army commander, Golubev, was replaced with General-Major Galanin. He was in charge of the central defense of Moscow ... ( the blue ones ). And he had suffered to many defeats ( 37 ). At the same time, the support level of the 10th Army was augmented to 7 instead of 3, in order to help Galanin achieve his objective and protect the HQ. So you will be able to choose a few extra support units for the 10th Army HQ.

[Crackaces]

The Center Commander requested that North spin the 4th Panzer Army southwards with a plan of cleaning up hexes while positioning forces in front of Yaro ...

To accomplish this mission there are the following objectives:

1) With Leningrad wrapped up this turn -- Commit General Hell and L Corps to cleaning up North Leningrad. Then On turn 14 move I Corps toward Pskov

2) To stabilize the position, assign 3 average morale units to Finns

3) Move the rest of 18th Army toward Moscow before turn 18

4) Assuming turn 18 is Mud and Turn 20 is first snow? Maybe 18th Army can deploy South of Yaro by turn 21?

The thoughts on the plan are shown below. Trap Soviet units, flip critical hexes, and finally position 2 Armies to the North of Moscow to attack key industry and manpower centers.

[Telemecus]

For information only - team allocations for turn 13

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis Initial Recon

Air losses after initial recon flights

Axis Supreme Commander
Do you not love German recon - they are the ones shooting down Soviet fighters!

If this is what Soviet fighters are like at the start of the turn how will they be by the end?

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis

[Telemecus]

Note Screenshots are not of the very end of the turn. The dropbox with all the game saves was deleted by a former player and the only copy we found was corrupted. (Many thanks to Crackaces for all the time spent finding backup copies and helping in the long de-dupe process). Although there may be differences from the final save the save from which these screenshots are taken is believed to be little different.

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis Leningrad Falls


Looks like Rokossovsky might need another set of teeth [:D]

ORIGINAL: topeverest
Help me understand the thought process of expending large numbers of forces in defense of Moscow and Leningrad.

Under normal circumstances the large number of forces defending Leningrad would make sense as they could be supplied over Lake Ladoga. The Neva as a major river and the urban hexes of Leningrad are excellent terrain and the large civil population is there to assist in fortification. Leningrad and its environs are a large population centre, holding it prevents the Finns becoming active into the Soviet Union, supply in the north becoming very good for the Germans by coming out of Finland and stretches the German front tieing up an extra army. Indeed historically large number of forces were deployed to Leningrad and this is exactly what they did.

The difference in this case is that the port of Osinovets has been bombed until it no longer works - and the Soviet team did not even realise it until Leningrad was cut off. So instead of making sense it has become a death trap for them.

For North Axis Commander AAR see fb.asp?m=4453562

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis West Moscow Surrender

ORIGINAL: topeverest
Help me understand the thought process of expending large numbers of forces in defense of Moscow and Leningrad.

Here not many soviet forces are actually left defending Moscow - although by supplying them by air it is tieing down many times more Germans to cordon them and eventually reduce them. Forces that otherwise would have been speeding to Gorky right now.

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis Air

There are many frustrations with the set up in the air. The airgroups in the airbases under Flieger Korps VIII benefit from the ratings of our very best air commander Wolfram von Richtofen. Yet many are being used as empty staging bases. And you can already see the start of the vicious cycle of fuel death for airbases. As they go forward they get less fuel, so airgroups simply cannot fly as much as you want them to for lack of fuel or commanders put fewer and smaller air groups on them. But that just leads to even less fuel during the next logistics phase for that airbase. I describe a solution to this here fb.asp?m=4610612 (see Spinning the Airbases) but it is not something the commanders are doing now.

In the 8MP team game I was the air commander but by the rules of this team game I am not allowed to be. The ground commanders quite naturally look first to their respective ground forces. There is a real need for one single coordinating air commander like the Soviet team now has.

[Telemecus]

T013 Axis Air Losses

This turn we were short on bombers (about 600 on map) as so many had to be sent to reserve. We also heard no Soviet partisan supply flights during their logistics phase!

[Telemecus]

T013+ Wintering Plans

Turn 13 and we are already planning how to winter key units during the blizzard

The first suggestion is to put into winter quarters units with 86 morale or more. Putting them into cities and into towns of size 4 or more will mean we keep their high morale over the blizzard as well as replace existing garrison units that can be used at the front instead. 85 is a key threshold for motorised - above that and you need one less movement point to enter enemy territory. For motorised units it will also mean far fewer vehicles and AFVs lost over winter.

However we will make exception for elite units like 78 infantry, Gross Deutschland, SS Wiking etc (they will have base morale above 85 anyway and can return to it in the summer) and for units which are withdrawing (as we do not care about morale after they withdraw).

Perhaps we can winter more motorised with a lower threshold?

[Telemecus]

For information only - attached spreadsheet with assignments of every unit at start and end of every turn until the start of turn 13.

[Beria]

T013 Soviet Supreme Rallying Cry

Soviet Supreme Commander
Things went good this turn. No advance on the Central Front. Not significant advance on the Northern Front as well.
There was however, some problems down south. I need you to retreat and create a defensive line between Voronezh and Rostov.
...keep doing what you are doing, slowly retreats to the new defensive line.
Southern Commander, get out of encirclement, and retreat, we CANNOT risk losing any more troops to encirclements.

Marshalls. I count on you for your understanding and for your determination. I know, in these hard times, it can be difficult to believe in victory. It can be difficult to wake up in the morning, if you have had any sleep at all. I know it can be hard to look at your wife, and children, and tell them that everything will be okay. Me, more than any men alive in this great country of the USSR, know how difficult it can be to bear the consequences of our actions. Every single day, I put men to death. I understand the feeling of leaving a division behind in order to buy some time for others to retreat. I see the pain in your eyes when you receive orders to abandon the pocketed armies. The sweat and blood of our soldiers, who had to abandon their comrades in Moscow.

But with great sacrifices, and great determination, and hard fighting, comes great victories. Let us not forget, that soon, the German Rats will be frozen in the streets. Our tanks will thread on their skulls, our shells, will fall on their officers and commanders. YES !! MARSHALLS !! I KNOW TIME ARE HARD. I KNOW THE CRUSHING FEELING WE ALL FEEL. BUT LET THIS NOT, BE MY LAST WORDS, LETS MEET AGAIN IN MOSCOW FOR CHRISTMAS !!!

My great comrades in arms, we will ALL share the burden of war together, like true communist fighters !! From now on, THERE WILL BE NOT ONE STEP BACK FROM OUR NEW DEFENSIVE LINES, BUT ALL STEPS FORWARDS !!! COMRADES, TO GREAT VICTORIES AHEAD !!!! KILL THE FASCIST SWINES WITH HONOR AND GLORY !!!! REPULSE THE INVADERS AS DID OUR ANCESTORS !!!

[Telemecus]

There is certainly someone getting into it! [:D]

[Beria]

T013 Soviet South

Pocket in the south at the start of the turn

[Beria]

T013 Soviet



(note: a red star on the image marks the hex where the pocket was broken)

Soviet Commander charged with evacuation
THE IMPORTANCE OF GORKY
Gorky and Yaroslavl were not consider important objectives and supposedly are to be abandon if necessary.
This can NOT and should NOT be done! Gorky is a major Industrial Center... the total cost of evacuation is a whooping 470 816 rail capacity!!
that is 5 turn worth, I repeat 5 turns!! and it implies we don't transport ANY troops what so ever during those 5 turns.
I'm not even mentioning Dzerzhinsky(e), 2 hexes west of Gorky with a LaGG-3 factory, 2 Armaments and 2 Heavy Industry with an evacuation cost of 53056, about half a turns worth of rail cap.

For all intents and purpose, Gorky is the new Soviet Capital, with its Industry and 25 manpower and should be defended as such, AT ALL COST!! I propose a plan for the final defense of Gorky.

Do NOT despair! at the final front lines with low supply, a strong defense can not be overcame, Central commander! gather Zhukov, Rokossovky, Zhakarov, Tolbokhin and any others if you have too!!
and the Volga itself can and should be guarded by weak formations in areas at risk of crossings, a simple tank brigade or AT-brigade is enough for the peaceful areas(they require an actual attack by the enemy).
and at least 1 decent division should Garrison Gorky and Yaroslavl at all times.

WHY a defense in front of the Volga is important.

The last defensive plan called for the eventual retreat behind the Volga, while it is true we have far to few troops for a pro-active defensive, we should try at the very least the form a "outer ring" in Yaroslavl.
1st off, the worst out came, the Germans forming a "Volga line" is the most ideal for the Axis! they have zero reasons to go beyond the Volga, the Germans would just fortify along the river until Blizzard.
that way, only once the Volga river is completely frozen, and no longer effects movement or combat, do the Axis calmly withdraw, while we try at best to catch up.

there is also the point that any redraw must be executed with care. the Industries of Ivanovo, Yaroslavl and Rebisk can NOT be forgotten.
Ivanovo - 3 Armaments, 3 Heavy Industry = 38400 rail cap.
Rebisk - 2 Armaments, 2 Heavy Industry = 25600 rail cap.
Yaroslavl - 3 Armaments, 2 Heavy Industry, 5 Vehicles = 56400! rail cap.

while Ivanovo and Rebisk can be evacuate and are acceptable losses, as long as the Outskirts are defended until the evacuation is complete.
Yaroslavl must stand proud! not only is it quite expensive to evacuate, it has the Volga at its back! an excellent counter to encirclements!!
and the Outer Ring aspect of the plan is Important because it is necessary that our forces are not easily contain, in order to conduct an effective Blizzard offensive of course.

to make the situation more easy for the central front. this area in particular can be lightly defended.

I'm willing to bet that because of the Terrain, this area is likely to be ignored by the enemy, a push here will not harm our situation much.

and to compound why we should adopt this strategy, remember there is still the industry in the South. too much demand for rail capacity.

I will still give priority for Heavy Industry, see to it that we don't fall below 170.

[Beria]

How the pocket was broken

(Note: hex marked by a red star in previously posted image)

[Beria]

T013+ Soviet Plans

Soviet Supreme Commander
On the 16th October. Reinforcement will be shared between North and South.
On the 23rd and 30th October, Reinforcement will be sent in the Central Front.
On the 6th November, reinforcement will be given to the South
On the 13 November, reinforcement will be given to the North.

The Kursk Commando Army
On the 20th, 27th and 4th December, ALL reinforcement will be given to the Kursk Front. The Kursk front will be somewhat of a Active/Sleeping Commando Army that can be activated whenever I decide. This is a new Front I want to open, with, POSSIBLY, a new human commander. During Active time, the Kursk Front will have for objective to execute pincer movement where an opportunity arise, either going North towards Smolensk, or South towards Kiev. During Sleeping time, it will try to go and capture back Chernigov and Gomel.

This is the reinforcement you will all receive. ALL Moscow Rifle divisions will be sent to Moscow Front. All Leningrad Rifle Division will be sent to Leningrad Front.
Keep in mind Marshalls, that those forces are going to be the one you will have at your disposition for the Winter Offensive I am currently planning. The date of the attack has not yet been decided but during mid October, I will communicate with each of you, the objectives I want to achieve, and you will need to draw me a strategic plan. I may change some details , but if accepted, you will all be expected to achieve those objectives so be realist in your execution. Each Front will need to be in pair with each other, we cant have the central front advancing 50 miles, while North and South advance 10 miles.

I am just letting you guys know whats about to happen in a few months.

[Telemecus]

For information only - attached was sent to the team describing how we would change how we play as a team.

Big changes in how we organise ourselves. Having organised ourselves and built a team, now we are disorganising to get faster. As the team has learnt how each other plays and is communicating so much we are now making things less structured and more self organising. And tasks like initial recon for the whole team are multi-tasked - whoever sees the file for the start of the Axis turn first does it for all. The aim is for the Axis team to finish its turn even faster than it has been doing.