Did something change with Anti Sub?

[AlvaroSousa]

I redid their escorts so they are better vs humans but you just basically beat the crap out of them.
Their tech is correct also.

I did a few runs in 1942 and the damage was appropriate

You were running 9 subs?

[PanzerMike]

Eventually 9, starting with the starting forces of 1939 and building a new unit every few months.

And yes, I am a badass. Fear me you Brits, your base are belong to us.

You found out yet what happened when the merchants hit 0?

[AlvaroSousa]

They don't get production from overseas that's what happens.

Always looking into making the A.I. better. I'll work on it.

[PanzerMike]

I meant what happened in the sense that I still kept sinking merchants while they had 0 left. What was going on?

21 november:


Convoy attack:


5 december:


This is definitely bugged. Merchants are 0 yet they are sunk anyway. And 1 UK escort was supposedly sunk, but the number of escorts went up with 1 instead of down [&:]

Update: sorry I misread the combat report. Playing too much warplan does that to you. The UK defended with 1 escort, but lost none. So skip my remark on the escorts. The 0 merchants still being sunk issue still stands though.

[AlvaroSousa]

Ill take a look. The A.I. does make escorts.

[PanzerMike]

I updated my previous post. I misread the combat report regarding the escorts.There is only the issue of 0 merchants, that still are being sunk (let's call them ghost ships...).

[AlvaroSousa]

You sure it isn't another major power.

[PanzerMike]

Well, look at pics I posted. Two merchants were sunk that turn, They could not be UK, they are at 0. It was not the USA, they had 89 and stayed at 89. Not Canada, they had 0 and remained at 0.
So what other major power would it be?

I will do some more testing tomorrow just to be sure, because you do not seem to have found something amiss in the code (yet) I presume?

And yes, the AI makes both merchants and escorts. I stopped attacking convoys for a while in my current game and their numbers rose slightly, so that is good. But I still think something is off once the UK hits 0.

[AlvaroSousa]

It could also be that they got MMs then you sank them on their turn then on your turn it still showed zero.

The numbers seem right on my end.

[PanzerMike]

Will get back on this tomorrow. Bed time here now [:)]

[PanzerMike]

TEST REPORT

Game is at Sept 26 1941. The UK has 0 Merchants left. The Kriegsmarine has 11 sub units. I am playing Axis vs AI on Historical. I may point out up front that 11 subs are possible at this point in time, because U-Boat losses have been minimal. No repair costs. The 11 sub units are all 1941 tech units (a mix of normal and long range boats).

This is the save to start it all:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w0x7wrox709e2 ... 1.sav?dl=0
This save was made using the very last beta version. I have since upgraded to the official patch.

Here is the starting situation:


Two wolfpacks are currently at sea
- 145,90 Arctic Lend Lease (Ger. U-48 SS Grp consisting of 3 units)
- 105,44 South Atlantic (Ger. U-38 SS Grp consisting of 3 units)

I move the third wolfpack currently in port Bordeaux (135,43) to
- 105,53 South Atlantic (Ger U-8 SS Grp consisting of 5 units)

I end the the turn.

Turn resolution:


So I sank 19 Merchant this turn with two wolfpacks (the U-48 Grp at the Arctic Lend Lease convoy lane attacked twice, is this right?). The third wolfpack that was moved out of port to the South Atlantic did nothing, which is how it should work as far as I know (they are considered still in transit this turn resolution I suppose). I did suffer 1 U Boat factor loss, but that is very modest considering the carnage at sea.

What does the report say now:

What do we see here. Hmmmm. The numbers have not changed compared to the last report! The UK is still at 0 Merchants, though I sank 19. Well, one might argue, maybe they built 19(!) that very turn. So, you just killed their shiny new merchants. I don't think so. Look at the casualties numbers in the screenshot. They had 244 casualties on SEPT 26. They still have 244 casualties on OCT 10. The number should have gone up to 263 (244+19) if that were true.

Here is the new save after the turn:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8a030330rwnx8 ... 2.sav?dl=0

I again end the turn, while doing nothing, with now 3 wolfpacks at sea. Stay tuned!

Turn resolution:


Bam! Sank 22 merchants and 2 escorts. Note that the U-48 Grp at the Arctic Lend Lease convoy lane attacked twice again.

And here is the report:

What can we learn? The UK is still at 0 merchants. Still at 244 casualties too (should have been 244+19+22=285 by now if all was well). They do build escorts to counter my menace; there number went up with 10.
But they assigned only a handful to the actual convoy lanes.

Seeing all this, I can not conclude otherwise that something is not quite right here. Yes the AI should assign more escorts (that is being adressed if I am correct). But the numbers are off. And what about that U-48 attacking twice a turn. Are they on pervitin [:D] ?

What do you think?

[Journier]

im telling you something is wrong, either you arent sinking ships and the games reporting it (unlikely), or the casualty screen fails to update. It always happens to me after UK hits zero convoys. hope it gets fixed.

I think you did a good job explaining the turn by turn changes to show to alvaro!

[pzgndr]

Looks like code is calculating and displaying losses despite no available merchants. But there are still escorts. Code should probably re-calculate as needed to better balance sub interactions between merchants/escorts. Clearly if there are merchant targets and no escorts then losses should be high. If there are no merchants but plenty of escorts then subs should probably not be engaging and risking sub losses, but this may simply be an oversight that wasn't considered. Either which way, Al probably has an algorithm that just needs some adjustments.

[AlvaroSousa]

I checked the code and all is in order. I'll check again.

Meanwhile I suggested trying house ruling 1-3 subs per hex at most to combat the super sub problem. I will get a patch out today later in the afternoon to correct this.

[PanzerMike]

And what about the U48 double attack? Is that working as designed?

[AlvaroSousa]

That is probably the same sub attacking 2 different convoys.

[PanzerMike]

How is that possible? It is on the Arctic LL. Are there two convoys in that lane?

[AlvaroSousa]

One from US and one from UK yes

[AlvaroSousa]

So I ran some tests this morning and it seems 3 subs per hex balances things out. Might be 2. Not sure yet. I'll upload a beta soon.

[PanzerMike]

Maybe apply a penalty for every sub unit above 2. Number three operating at 50 percent, number 4 at 25 percent. Something like that, just a simple idea. Discourage doomstacks.

Any news on the 0 merchants issue?