2x3+ Team Side Game - BOTH SIDES

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2x3+ 016+ Axis Winter Plan

Post by Telemecus »

T016+ Axis Winter Plan
South Axis Commander
got ground to fall back, all the way to Moscow I would say. I'll try to take as much ground as I can for the same reason spare the army
Priorities for protecting units from weather effects

I Vehicle damage
Avoid moving on map motorised units in bad weather - ideally moved while the weather is still clear or else after mud. Armoured units should get priority as their AFVs are more valuable than the vehicles of motorised infantry. Offmap motorised units (e.g. SPGuns, SP AA etc.) ideally left in an HQ which is not moving. Alternatively use rail or sea transport instead. Airbases and HQs are also motorised units.

II Morale loss
Priority is to keep motorised for 1942 with the maximum hex movement per MP (needing 86 or more morale if motorised, 81 or more if infantry)

In order of priority the motorised units to protect morale levels are
i) Non-elite non-withdrawing units with morale now at 88 or over. If their morale ends up at 85 or below it is unlikely to get back again. At the moment these are
-North: 1,6,7, 8Pz, 3, 36 Mot
-Centre: 5, 18Pz, 10, 20, 29Mot
-South: 9, 13Pz
I have assumed those with 87 morale or below will go to 85 or below after replacements
ii) Elite non-withdrawing units. As they have a bonus to morale if they are withdrawn from the front soon enough they can still recover to a morale 86 or more.
-North: Totenkopf (NM+15)
-Centre: Gross Deutschland (NM+19/20)
-South: Wiking (NM+15)
iii) Other non-withdrawing units. Probably worth prioritising the highest morale/ToE ones and divisions over independent brigades within this group.
iv) Withdrawing units. As these go before the summer campaign we do not care where their morale gets to.
-Centre: Das Reich, 900 Lehr,10Pz
-South: LAH, Hungarian Mobile Brigades

Slovak Mobile Division and Rumanian Armoured Division: Although not a priority to withdraw, it also is not a priority for the front so should be protected at least to avoid vehicle loss. As well as the vehicles the Slovaks currently have 12 morale points ahead of its base morale meaning it needs one less MP per enemy hex traveled.

Italian cavalry will become a motorised unit at some point early in 1942.

It can also be useful to keep Panzer corps HQs with very morale at that level too to ensure their mobility to keep up with their units.

Although not needed for mobility some suggest keeping high morale or many/all SUs in an HQ in the European zone (e.g. in an RHG) - I am not sure if this is worthwhile?

Infantry units worth protecting are
-North:1,11,12,61,21,23,30,32,217
-Centre: 7 but not 78 which has a morale bonus
-South: 24

Units with morale 55 or lower get no morale loss - this includes many allied units.

Units sent to hexes with protection from weather effects can be
i) Reassigned to OKH to give front line HQs more command capacity
ii) Kept in "Panzer Hubs" at or near front as reserve activators or for emergencies/contingencies
iii) Kept on rails for rapid deployments or strategic reserve
iv) Used as garrison troops relieving summer garrison units for other duties

Alternatively combat victories will boost morale - but this is harder as you go above national morale and replacements of the loses will dilute the gain. These units may be needed to stabilise the front during the Soviet offensive or because opportunites justify it. A motorised unit with morale 86 or over can travel 25 enemy hexes in the summer but 16 if morale is 85 or below. And similarly a high morale infantry unit can travel 8 hexes as opposed to 5. Whatever ground or objectives are held in blizzard has to be set against what it could gain in the summer.

Image

Included above is a rough guess at where we will probably start the winter (in red is centre's suggestion). The point was also made in this game there is little point in fortifying a hard line, we are probably better off just making the biggest buffer of territory in advance as possible.
Axis Supreme Commander
If I was Soviet I would accept Moscow is gone. I would probably put everything into getting Stalino back actually. Perhaps local things for say Ivanovo or Tambov but Stalino is the only place in range to get something worthwhile. And if they assume a 1942 for Baku - we still have to decide 1942 but it is a recurring plan for Axis - they might think pushing back the start line is the best prospect.

We will also need to redistribute mountain units to where we most want to hold ground - currently they are all in the south.
Axis South Commander
Dont take my mountain [;)]
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RE: 2x3+ 016+ Axis Winter Plan

Post by Telemecus »

T016+ Axis Winter Plan continued

Players are even making spreadsheets of what goes where. In this case the top panel are the units they prioritise for wintering and the bottom panel which are prioritised for the front.

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2x3+ 016 Axis Centre Air Deployment Plan

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Centre Air Deployment Plan

The plan for deploying the airforce I prepared for ground commanders to show what I would do. It shows in a concrete example how to incorporate three cycles - morale cycling of airgroups in and out of National Reserve, Kabuki Dancing air groups forward, and the logistical rotation of airbases (valid up to v1.11.03) - see fb.asp?m=4610612 for an explanation.

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TURN 16 Airbase Deployment Plan

1. VERY IMPORTANT - DO AIR SETTINGS+RESERVE GO FIRST: There needs to be one manual air swap and at least some aircraft sent to national reserve in turn 16. This has to be done first as cannot be done after moved. Plus sending some aircraft to national reserve makes more space in airbases which makes redeployment easier

MOVING BOMBER BASES FORWARD i.e. use 16LW as middle man to move bomber bases forward
2. Air Transfer the short range recon in your Luftwaffe bases on rail to forward army recon bases i.e. 6.H/12 (HS 126B-1) on 15LW and 6.H/21 on 12LW (they are short range recon plane we do not want in a rear area LW bomber base - this may already have transfered or sent to national reserve it in the first recon go of the turn)
3. Air Transfer all aircraft in 8LW to 16LW (same hex) and move 8LW (now empty) to the second rail repaired hex and air trasnfer all aircraft in 8LW back to 16LW. If there is some spare room in 8LW (less than 220 support in brackets say) air transfer in some other He,Do or JU88 (not 86) bombers to it.
4. Move Lft2 HQ to the second rail repaired hex (so that 16LW has room to stack under 15LW)
5. Air Transfer 15LW - Stab/JG27 (Bf 109E-7) to any forward fighter base (not 14LW)
6. Move 16LW under 15LW, and repeat 3. but for 15LW instead of 16LW (note Ju88D-1 also get air transfered with level bombers)
7. Move 16LW under 2LW (you may need to move 291 infantry first) and repeat 2 but for 2LW moving it to the first rail repaired hex and leave fighters, fighter bombers, tac/dive bombers and Ju86 on 16 LW (not air transfer to 2LW).
8. Repeat 7 but for 3LW

GETTING A WELL FUELLED/AMMOED BASE FORWARD i.e. one bomber base left spare on rails moved forward
9. Air Transfer the fighter in 12LW to any forward fighter base (not 14LW)
10. By now 12LW should have no more airgroups as they would have been taken in the spare room by 2LW,3LW,8LW and 15LW (level bombers), forward army recon base (short range recon) or forward fighter bases (fighters) - but will have lots of fuel and ammo for the aircraft that had been on it. Move 12LW towards the front where you need a well fueled airbase.
11. Air Transfer fighters, fighter bombers, tac/dive bombers and Ju86 on 16 LW to 12LW (16LW should be empty again for next turn)

GETTING AN EMPTY BASE BACK - note if you only push forward bases from rails you will run out of airbases with fuel and ammo!
12. Air Transfer the fighter airgroup on 14LW to 12LW or any airbase with spare room
13. Air transfer the recon aircraft on 14LW to any forward army recon base
14. 14LW is now empty, move back to rails (at end of turn airgroups will be assigned to it from national reserve)

POOLING NORTH AND CENTRE AIR FORCE
15. Reassign 2 and 3LW to FKVIII and FKII

Note: Now that North is moving south and distances from airbases on rail lines to front is large pooling all of north and centre airbases to FKVIII and and using it for both commands together is a good idea see ...
Short range bombers are probably more useful in the south now, any excuse to get stukas away from Centre.
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2x3+ 016 Axis 3rd Panzer Group Build Up

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis 3rd Panzer Group Build Up

Yet Another disappointing build up - this turn for 2nd Panzer Division and the SS Latvian Motorised Brigade which were on an HQ buildup direct from 3rd Panzer Group HQ last turn. The Axis team all upgraded to the latest patch as stated by the rules, although we can see the Soviet Supreme Commander has still not upgraded from v1.11.00 - and they run the Axis logistics phase ...
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2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

The screenshot below comes from midway in the Axis turn
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Note their use of a different map mod
If South can remove the two red circles and Centre then removes the blue one then Centre will move into the black circles or even risk lessening supply and do the blue circle too. Das reich can move to the blue circle, break into regis and move as needed
As Supreme Commander I am not allowed to touch the units in contact with the enemy - that is the prerogative of the other commanders. But I do spend a lot of time trying to make it as easy for them as possible. Normally that would mean trying to avoid this sort of cross-boundary co-ordination by moving the boundary up or down and giving both pincers in the link up to one commander to co-ordinate it on their own. Here however they were able to sort it out as a team. Some of this is down to the less structured team protocol we have been adopting. But also a lot of it is down to the use of discord for real-time co-ordination. This team game and the 8MP one had started before the use of discord was adopted and it is not for everyone and everything. But I do think rejection of use of discord use by the Soviet team as a whole is a big part of the reason for their much slower times to take a turn.
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras
Axis Supreme Commander
Did I ever suggest we should use the Paras?

Axis Ground Commanders
All the time!

Axis Supreme Commander
Voronezh pocket - if there was ever a good place for using paras this would be it,
dropping some paras can be a good way of closing a pocket shut.
(and also a Soviet way of opening)
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras

Here is later in the Axis action phase while still co-ordinating the resealing the Voronezh pocket at the boundary of Centre and South command

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras

Now consider if the Soviet could drop a para unit where indicated by the red outline. Whether or not the unit got wiped out, the hex would still flip control. And the ground units would be left with simple movements to break the pocket.

Without the Soviet para there it would be impossible (I think) to flip the hex control overground by movement alone.
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(Screenshot is from middle of Axis action phase)
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras
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(Screenshot is from middle of Axis action phase)

However Soviet paras could be prevented from flipping control of that hex simply by occupying that hex with a German unit where indicated. However that would mean that hex could now have its control flipped simply by winning a combat against the German unit there. There would be too many movement points to simply move to the hex, but far fewer movement points are needed simply to attack from an enemy ZOCed hex to an enemy in another enemy ZOCed hex. So putting a unit there "could" make it easier

Just a quirk - sometimes putting a unit somewhere makes it easier for the enemy to capture that hex!
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voro Pocket

Here is the way the ground commanders decided to reclose the Voronezh pocket. Looks pretty formidable - but the Soviet South Commander has had a knack of breaking in all summer and keeping his men alive, barely. Doing so again would mean tieing up Axis troops into the mud period and beyond. So having the 7 Flieger Division whole, or broken down to regiments, there as well might make all the difference.
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7 Flieger is at Bryansk with some transports so there is an option to use it either as garrison, as para landed brigades (e.g. close Voronezh pocket) or as ground infantry. They are 95 morale - so hard nutters - but without a lot of heavy equipment. They leave on xmas day - shame for them to leave having done nothing?
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2x3+ 016 Axis

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis



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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis

Post by Telemecus »

Will the Soviet team be able to break our final pocket of the summer at Voronezh yet again?
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2x3+ 016 Axis Yaroslavl

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Yaroslavl

By bluff if nothing else we have got all of Yaro apart from the last urban hex

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2x3+ 016 Axis Strategic Bombing

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Yaroslavl
Axis South Commander
Not getting damage on the yak 1 factories so that is game over.. :frowning:

-although six enemy fighter groups tied to the rear and its defence is still a victory

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Voronezh pocket continued
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Axis Supreme Commander
At the moment we are only using part of the fighter force. Hopefully in a few turns we can get back to using all fighters on map and the short range dive bombers too. Basically where the panzers are now the Soviets have been dominant in their phase and ours past turn. So Yaroslavl dozens of Soviet bombers and fighters giving ground support - nothing from us. Same happened at the Voroneh pocket where we had a base only able to support one fighter group in range anyway. Really we need many fuelled up bases to stop them pounding our armoured columns. Or even better destroying dozens of their planes
I also assigned a lot of flak to the panzer corps or HQs near them. All finnish flak forward too - they seem to be bombing them too!

Abwehr finds a radical new intelligence method - it is called read our opponents AARs from which we discover the Soviet enemy air commander never bombs air bases! Which means we do not have to defend them with flak and use it everywhere else instead. Commanders are encouraged to move their airbases as close in to the front as they can!
Axis South Commander
Lowest morale bombers are found in center
lol
no ... there from reserve last turn

Axis Supreme Commander
because they were the ones reserved centre from turns before!!
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2x3+ 016 Colour me Bronze

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Colour me Bronze
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It started with one player starting to recolour his motor units for Operation Bronze Charger...
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Beautiful

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Colour me Beautiful
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But seems to have now spread to our South Commander too
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Bad

Post by Telemecus »

T016 Axis Colour me Bad
Axis Ground Commander
What is the RGB code for Chartreuse?

Oh ffs!
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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Bad

Post by Crackaces »

The conversation below shows the dynamic of team play.

We get attached to our pixels. Pure game theory, we discuss the most optimum play. Maybe spend AP's and swap infantry units to optimize the play with the discussion focused on calculated outcomes based on imperfect information (just like optimizing play in poker). . But there is a human element to team play. The game starts with units in the North, Center, and South. These "units" we invest time in building wins, morale and experience. To me, this is a game. There are rules, and objects that we manipulate with random probability to achieve some victory as specified by the rules of the game. Others take the experience in a more human form. Player one has 2 Panzer armies and player two has one -- Is that fair? vs is this optimum play?

The ability to manage all these forces as one sometimes determines the outcomes. When there is one decider -- the problem is easy. I might propose that the the complexity goes up exponentially with each decider (player).

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2x3+ 016 Soviet South

Post by Beria »

T016 Soviet South Start of Turn

Now we get to see the damage in the Voronezh pocket

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Can we break it?
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