OT: Corona virus

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mind_messing
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

MacArthur went behind Truman's back to the Press and got his Hero of Inchon ass fired...with good reason.

Not quite the same circumstances in any way, shape or form, is it?

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

There may be USN SSBN's on extended cruises who don't even know about COVID. Imagine that. Say they put to sea in early December...they would have zero cases and to learn about the catastrophe would be a distraction from their mission. Maybe the Navy notifies the Captain on VLF? Even with that there is some guy named "Sparks" that receives the message. Perhaps the Captain has a decryption device he uses himself?

That's a huge call to make, given the strong likelihood that sailors will likely return to find family and friends seriously affected by what's going on. Doesn't strike me as being good for morale in the long term (or re-enlistment rate, for that matter).
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Early in this thread Chickenboy discussed mortality rates and offered some ideas in comparison to SARS and flus. Seasonal flu mortality figure typically used is 0.1% and, IIRC, Chickenboy posted that this might be above that, around 0.2% or neighborhood. At the time, 3% to 5% or higher was the widely discussed figure. That has since dropped to something around 1%. By the time this is over and retrospective analysis is complete Chickenboy's projections might be right on. Given what he does, no surprise. Chickenboy's first post, page one, given below. He amplified his thoughts further down that page and on page 3. I recall that a week or two into this, as more information became available, he posted to update his outlook and apologized to the extent earlier thoughts were off target. Bear in mind that this post was made 2/26/20, when the outbreak in South Korea was in its first days. Given Chickenboy's background, and how long he's been a member of this community, he's a tremendous in-house resource.

Chickenboy, Pg. 1 of this Thread:

I believe that this virus and disease will have a similar trajectory to that of MERS/SARS some 17 years ago. Coronaviruses are not Orthomyxoviruses (influenza) and act differently in transmissiblity and mutation rates, so again the MERS/SARS analog is probably more useful than H1N1 (1918; 2009) or other seasonal influenzas.

In the case of MERS/SARS, the virus circulated amongst mainland China for some time before diagnosed, a bit longer before there was recognition of it by central authorities and then longer yet before there was even a haphazard and incomplete response. International spread was a feature of the disease. Here's a very interesting and concise timeline from the CDC's website:

https://www.cdc.gov/about/history/sars/timeline.htm

To whit: The disease ran rampant in China for a while. Then it spread internationally. Cases that were not laboratory-confirmed were later re-stated (see entry for July 2003) and halved. In between, the overreaction to cases was addressed (de-stigmatization of SARS) and travel advisories lifted after a few months.

A curious thing about the SARS virus was how it disappeared after a year or so. No isolates were recovered post-2004. Poof. Gone. NIH states that the disappearance was due to quarantine and isolation of affected cases and-of course-due to the research money poured into NIH on interventional strategies.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/diseases-cond ... onaviruses

COVID-19 does behave somewhat differently in the human host (replicates higher in the respiratory tract versus deeper in the lungs like SARS) and therefore may spread more readily. By nature of its replication patterns, it will also probably have a lower case fatality rate. That's exempting the exacerbatory effects of other co-pathogens (COVID-19 PLUS influenza, streptococcal pneumonia, TB, asthma, emphysema, other respiratory disease in the same patient) of course. I have not seen *any* efforts to parse the effects of COVID-19 from other co-pathogen effects in infected, but this is likely one of the rationale for making sure to get one's annual flu vaccine ASAP if you haven't already done so.

Viruses spread more readily when they make one sick, but aren't fatal. Paradoxically, the sicker people are with a particular virus, the easier it is to diagnose and ultimately contain. The Los Angeles Times had a nice article on this a couple weeks ago.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... a-epidemic

What do I think will happen? Something more akin to SARS, albeit with a more significant global spread in the interim. I expect the peak of this will probably not be too far off and that, with the onset of warmer weather in most of the Northern Hemisphere it will abate. I would be surprised if we heard much about this 12 months from now, excepting in cooler climates (you listening, Oz land?) as they slip into their annual influenza cycle.

The economic and social impacts on our increasingly globally connected supply chains are a totally 'nuther question. I'm limiting my observations to the disease cycle and virus longevity in our public per se.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

I sent a copy of the previous post to Chickenboy via PM, so that he'd know I'd quoted him and length and could raise objections or add info/clarifications if needed. He replied with this addendum:

A couple of other observations re: COVID-19.

1. I think we've hit a peak in case count in this country-a couple days ago. Looks like I was two or three days off. Mea culpa.

2. IFRs and CFRs change throughout the disease cycle. SARS' CFR actually increased over time-which led to speculation about viral mutation that led to a more pathogenic organism. It wasn't that. It had more to do with the vagaries of case diagnostics and widespread testing. Then, and only then, did the specifics of the viral pathogenicity get nailed down. CFR for COVID-19 has gone the other way, as one would expect a less-lethal virus to do.

3. I've been thinking about the role of JANAC post-war in getting at the truth behind the submarine war against Japan. Throughout the war, sub skippers were claiming exorbitant tonnage sunk and feats of submariner strength. Lockwood, et. al. did their bit in crediting or not crediting captains when these issues were in doubt. But the real verity came from JANAC which almost universally significantly reduced the tonnages claimed by sub captains in the thick of things.

Much like I think we need a Marshall Plan/Manhattan Project level of commitment to revitalize our public health system (including vaccine and treatment research), I think we need JANAC accounting to-piece by piece-go through the death records and get a feel for what *really* happened globally. Like SARS, I think the devil is in the details and that ultimate deaths associated with COVID-19 will be parsed out and found to be a shade of what we think they would have otherwise been.

4. Good news on the influenza front: CDC just reduced their influenza threat to "Low". This is the fastest tapering of influenza epidemiologic curve in history-probably because of social distancing due to COVID-19. We will likely lose well less than average victims to influenza in this country this year. Presinzki effect writ large.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Covid-19 is just the hors d'oeuvres.






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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

I'm not sure what point three means (US subs in WWII, but undoubtedly that's on me).**

**Upon two re-readings, I got it. It was on me.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

In reply to my PM to Chickenboy this a.m., he shared with me many more details about his background. At my request, he said I can share this with you.

From Chickenboy to me via PM just a few minutes ago:

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the notes. You can use my earlier thoughts in the context you described. That's fine by me.

Some forumites might know that I'm a poultry veterinarian. They're probably thinking 'big whoop.' Who cares? I debated whether posting this might toot my own horn, so I didn't. But I'm OK burnishing my credentials a bit for you in a PM.

My original training was in veterinary medicine. Early on I decided that I was more interested in population medicine and epidemiology, so I stayed on after the rest of my class graduated to complete a parallel MPVM (Master in Preventive Veterinary Medicine) program. It focused on epidemiology, study design, statistics and population medicine. Outbreak investigation was always one of my favorite 'detective' sorts of pastimes within the training.

After finishing my DVM and MPVM at UC Davis (go Aggies!), I did a residency at the University of Pennsylvania. Here I focused on diagnostic pathology of avian species (mostly poultry), but also cut my teeth on 'program' disease management for things like Salmonella Enteritidis and, particularly, avian influenza. For AI, we had to use human influenza tests for rapid diagnosis and were reminded about the costs/benefits/values associated with population serosurveillance, antigen-capture assays, virus isolation and reliance on clinical signs for diagnostics. We had a few outbreaks of novel coronaviruses ('infectious bronchitis virus') that we learned to work with and live with too. And they went 'poof' also. I became a 'boarded' poultry veterinarian with the American College of Poultry Veterinarians in 1998.

After a sojourn to Pennsylvania and Delaware, I landed in Minnesota at the CVM (College of Veterinary Medicine) there. My focus was-again-diagnostic pathology of (mostly) poultry. Like UPENN, I also taught veterinary students and was involved in state disease control programs and training of field personnel. I helped develop and get funding for the only BSL-3 veterinary necropsy suite in the state and, of course, went through mandated training on how to work in a biocontainment facility with agents of significant zoonotic potential.

When "BIRD FLU!" global fears arose (circa 2005-2007), I threw my hat into the ring. I was involved in a number of projects abroad that focused on laboratory capacity building, laboratory technician training, disease intervention and diagnostic programmatic development. We spent time in South Vietnam talking with animal handlers about the importance of hand washing and PPE. I spent time in countries like the Republic of Georgia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam on these topics.

Somewhere in there, I got an MBA from the University of Minnesota. I liked the introduction to accounting, operational management, negotiation and marketing management in particular. Focus on marketing and strategy. Got that in 2008.

So I find myself snickering a little bit. The human COVID-19 outbreak is right in my training and experiential 'wheelhouse'. For a poultry vet. Epidemiology. Study design. Diagnostic testing / laboratory capacity building. Vaccine trials. Emerging disease control and eradication. Lots of parallel and overlapping experiences. Life is funny that way sometimes.

One of my most proud memories is a trip to the BSL-4 high containment USDA facility on Plum Island. That visit reinforced my view that we veterinarians really are the tip of the spear in mitigating zoonotic disease and diseases that can seriously impact humanity. I was one of the last people to ever see clinical Rinderpest in animals. The USDA has since destroyed their stores of virus and this disease, like Smallpox in humans is now considered eradicated. Good riddance.

Anyways, I wax on. Sorry. Just thought I'd give you some context about my background that you may not be otherwise privy to.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

I'm going out on a limb to predict that COVID will NOT be eradicated like SARS or MERS (apparently). It's much better adapted to human transmission. I suspect it will settle in for the long run like the other 4 human Coronaviruses.

229E (alpha coronavirus)
NL63 (alpha coronavirus)
OC43 (beta coronavirus)
HKU1 (beta coronavirus)

With growing herd immunity and almost certainly a vaccine and improved knowledge on treatment it will not be such a terrible threat. I believe of the other human Coronaviruses 3 are of bat origin and one appears to have come from ungulates. We may have had these things for centuries.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Human Respiratory Coronaviruses Detected In Patients with Influenza-Like Illness in Arkansas, USA

2014 Mar 26.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5004774/


"In conclusion, OC43, NL63 strains and a new feline-like strain circulating in Arkansas may have been associated with the acute respiratory symptoms observed in patients negative for influenza virus. Whether the feline-like coronavirus strain represents a direct case of interspecies transmission or a new human strain is not clear at this point. The severity of symptoms associated with the CoV infection and/or other respiratory viruses may have encouraged patients to seek clinical diagnosis of influenza infection."






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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by JohnDillworth »

The economic and social impacts on our increasingly globally connected supply chains are a totally 'nuther question.

Indeed, that is another thing to figure out. Clearly, the "just in time" supply chain is best suited for an economy running at peak efficiency. Kind of like a smooth race track with no bumps or rough surfaces. Once that just in time supply chain gets interrupted it's individual parts are worth much less than the whole. Example, GM is not trying to make ventilators. The design they are working with has 700 parts. GM does not actually make many or any of those parts. They are trying to put together a supply chain of 700, individual parts. Once that chain gets set up they can produce in great volume, but souring each of those 700 parts, some from small shops, has been the challenge
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Chickenboy excerpt: 4. Good news on the influenza front: CDC just reduced their influenza threat to "Low". This is the fastest tapering of influenza epidemiologic curve in history-probably because of social distancing due to COVID-19. We will likely lose well less than average victims to influenza in this country this year. Presinzki effect writ large.

I read this as saying that coronavirus countermeasures also had the unintended consequence of significantly lowering the annual flu mortality. I don't know if they'll end up offsetting (or not, possibly by a considerable number). The steps taken seemed proportional to the threat and our perceptions of it, at least in many places. I don't think we'd ever see credible sources say, "Hey, covid claimed 200k mortality worldwide but that was offset by a 200k lowering in flu mortality." Besides, it seems like the countermeasures are responsible for the unexpected dividend.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Thanks, Cap Mandrake, our in-house medical doctor expert. (There may be others, but he and Chickenboy are the two I know of.)

From a data analysis standpoint, Lokasenna is the one (I think he thinks I knew that all along, but if so I'd long since forgotten until he mentioned it again about a week ago).
ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I'm going out on a limb to predict that COVID will NOT be eradicated like SARS or MERS (apparently). It's much better adapted to human transmission. I suspect it will settle in for the long run like the other 4 human Coronaviruses.

229E (alpha coronavirus)
NL63 (alpha coronavirus)
OC43 (beta coronavirus)
HKU1 (beta coronavirus)

With growing herd immunity and almost certainly a vaccine and improved knowledge on treatment it will not be such a terrible threat. I believe of the other human Coronaviruses 3 are of bat origin and one appears to have come from ungulates. We may have had these things for centuries.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy excerpt: 4. Good news on the influenza front: CDC just reduced their influenza threat to "Low". This is the fastest tapering of influenza epidemiologic curve in history-probably because of social distancing due to COVID-19. We will likely lose well less than average victims to influenza in this country this year. Presinzki effect writ large.

I read this as saying that coronavirus countermeasures also had the unintended consequence of significantly lowering the annual flu mortality. I don't know if they'll end up offsetting (or not, possibly by a considerable number). The steps taken seemed proportional to the threat and our perceptions of it, at least in many places. I don't think we'd ever see credible sources say, "Hey, covid claimed 200k mortality worldwide but that was offset by a 200k lowering in flu mortality." Besides, it seems like the countermeasures are responsible for the unexpected dividend.



Coronavirus Overshadows a Deadly Flu Season
The flu has killed 22,000 people so far this year and the season isn’t over.

March 20, 2020
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news ... flu-season

"With flu season still winding down, at least 144 children younger than 18 have died, a toll topped only by the 2009 H1N1 pandemic since health authorities began tracking flu data in 2004.

So far this season, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recorded 36 million flu cases in the U.S., with 370,000 hospitalizations and 22,000 deaths. "


Deadly







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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Hey, covid claimed 200k mortality worldwide but that was offset by a 200k lowering in flu mortality."




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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Who is that, Robin Gibb? I know that's not Barry and Maurice behind him.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

I've been digesting multiple items of good news this morning and corresponding with various folks about this and related matters.

I'm not forgetting that some jurisdictions are fully embroiled in the fight on a major scale, mostly unable to celebrate the trend in good news.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Who is that, Robin Gibb? I know that's not Barry and Maurice behind him.

...



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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

MacArthur went behind Truman's back to the Press and got his Hero of Inchon ass fired...with good reason.

Not quite the same circumstances in any way, shape or form, is it?

No, MacArthur needed to be removed. He was veering toward a messianic state. I think the Captain of Roosevelt felt compassion toward his crew and knew he would get sacked but did it anyway. It is noble in a way and understandable..but still wrong. You can't have officers disobeying orders because it is a difficult ask. He essentially declared to the world that an entire USN carrier battle group was out of action. Suppose the CCP decides THIS is the time to invade Taiwan based on that information (not likely of course)? Or the mullahs of Iran decide to stir up shit right now (more likely) and they miscalculate badly?

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

There has to be a high level of security in the military. Must be.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Stanford Professor: Data Indicates We’re Severely Overreacting To Coronavirus
March 30th, 2020
https://www.stress.org/stanford-profess ... oronavirus

"In an analysis published Tuesday, Stanford’s John P.A. Ioannidis — co-director of the university’s Meta-Research Innovation Center and professor of medicine, biomedical data science, statistics, and epidemiology and population health — suggests that the response to the coronavirus pandemic may be “a fiasco in the making” because we are making seismic decisions based on “utterly unreliable” data. The data we do have, Ioannidis explains, indicates that we are likely severely overreacting.

“The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco,” Ioannidis writes in an opinion piece published by STAT on Tuesday."






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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

This conclusion by the Stanford professor in the link just provided by MakeLearn is significant:



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