Consensus 11.3 or 12.5 for a new game

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: BrianG

i say 12.5 but fixes needed:

clearly rr should not be factor in russian supply %.

less routs, and less shatter chance when in supply

retreat routine where at least first hex retreat move is away from enemy zoc/ then next is lowest mp to supply, then etc

supply points must be placed IMO in port Astrakhan

and also at Batimi so that the Crimea is defended with greater ease and it has too be taken by the Germans. Not isolated.
And (in my case I fear left a big poisoner lot). I already see Tyronec having no intention in pursuing my trapped troops. This must be done. MUST. It will make for a much better game (supply comes in through Persia).

the automatic rr repair in trapped areas.

all hq's future arrival and departure should be in the troops arrival area. Including freezing dates and unfreeze. That way no one, including new players, needs to be surprised. Especially air.

Russians should no longer lose AP for lost units which are getting reformed.

When Russians units can be combined should be listed in the turn log near the weather report.

1941 new rookie Russian troop reinforcements should not be placed in the Urals but much further west, maybe near Kazan

ground interdiction should be limited to closer to the front line

frozen Russian units which are surrounded in turn 1 should be given enhanced mp's and immediately unfrozen. Also, in actually, when units unfreeze needs to be fixed. I say 10 hexes to nearest enemy controlled hex.

Partisans: a few thoughts, way to many and a waste. Game should automatically merged them to make them stronger and auto move them closer to repaired rr hexes.

Thanks

Thank you Brian. That is a laundry list of items there [X(]

[Disgruntled Veteran]

A couple observations of 1.12.05 as a German player.

-Yes, the intercept bug is a problem, but most of you have heard my posts already. The luftwaffe still works, but it cannot defend itself against Soviet airfield bombing. The only defense is to keep your planes way back and use a staging base, but this still uses a lot more miles than it should.

-Forts. This may be a bit overkill, but it does add some realism. I don't know if a Soviet player can lose Leningrad now. I mean its possible, but not against a good Soviet. My usual mass attack attack the river cross square 2 hexes east of Leningrad in my game barely scratched the fort and my opponent repaired the damage over his turn. It would probably take a minimum of 4 attacks, but probably 8-9 (absolute best divisions, tons of pioneers, model commanding etc), but I don't see it working unless the Soviet is careless. Perhaps an attack in spring would work better when the river is frozen, but forts are ridiculous strong now. This adds realism and a bit more balance, but I think it is a touch too strong. The only reason I took Odessa is because my opponent abandoned it (foolish on his part). I don't see me taking sevastopol.

Just a couple observations.

[eskuche]

Two comments to above:
Interception fatigue is low for miles and much much higher for combat if it occurs. You can fly several unimpeded escorts for 5% fatigue but a battle will kick it up 4-6% each time so really the tradeoff is fine I think.

For forts maybe it’s time to reconsider crossing the Neva as a meta? It might be more worth attacking big L head on then getting three hexes from which to attack Pavlov.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

For forts maybe it’s time to reconsider crossing the Neva as a meta? It might be more worth attacking big L head on then getting three hexes from which to attack Pavlov.

The way I read Disgruntled Veteran's post is that it is the fort level itself not the meta. Meaning it is a "bitch" to take any high level fort.

[joelmar]

For the fort levels increased resistance, it's greatly offset by the upgraded punch of the engineers and heavy artillery against fortifications. Level 3 forts in urban with no rivers are not so hard to destroy with enough engineers and a few .240+. even .210 can do some damage. Probably even easier than before. But an attack from only 2 hexes against high fortifications across the Neva is another story, a bitch yes.

[eskuche]

ORIGINAL: joelmar

For the fort levels increased resistance, it's greatly offset by the upgraded punch of the engineers and heavy artillery against fortifications. Level 3 forts in urban with no rivers are not so hard to destroy with enough engineers and a few .240+. even .210 can do some damage. Probably even easier than before. But an attack from only 2 hexes against high fortifications across the Neva is another story, a bitch yes.

Yeah this is what I was more getting at, sorry if I’m unclear. A moderate organizational effort can commit 3 x heavy howitzer and 15 x 210 mm artillery (plus all the pioneers) on a land-accessible fort such as Leningrad, especially if the Svir can be reached separately. It might be worth revisiting the decision-making process here and elsewhere (Such as rail repair) in 12.xx, which I’m not sure has been publicly done.

[tyronec]

My experience is that the fort mods are working well.
Sevastapol is tough to take but with three good stacks (yes, 3 so that you can get two attacks in turn) it can be taken down in a few turns and if the Soviets don't pull out will cost them their garrison. This feels about right, am using a stronger force than Manstein had and it is still a struggle.
Well defended cities are a real roadblock.
In '42 my line of 2+ level fortifications held by AGN is no real defence against the Soviets, they can gang up on any hex defended by a single division and usually take it out with a couple of attacks. If I went to the effort of building up a line of 3 level forts it wouldn't help much as the Soviets could knock them down with one attack and then punch through with a second or third one. So Axis need a reserve of strength to hold the line. Am not sure how this would pan out against stronger Soviet offensives in '43 or '44 but it looks like it could be tough going for Axis. Again this looks like the fort rules have been an improvement to the game.
I can't speak to Leningrad as both my games I isolated the whole peninsula first, but clearly you would not be wanting to attack the city directly.

[56ajax]

@Brian

When Russians units can be combined should be listed in the turn log near the weather report. - Yes there should be an calendar and you get a warning 4 Turns before; I think I mentioned that one in suggestions for WiTE2.

1941 new rookie Russian troop reinforcements should not be placed in the Urals but much further west, maybe near Kazan - totally agree, WiTE2 has theatre boxes

ground interdiction should be limited to closer to the front line

frozen Russian units which are surrounded in turn 1 should be given enhanced mp's and immediately unfrozen. Also, in actually, when units unfreeze needs to be fixed. I say 10 hexes to nearest enemy controlled hex. - Every frozen unit should be unfrozen by paying nominal aps;

Partisans: a few thoughts, way to many and a waste. Game should automatically merged them to make them stronger and auto move them closer to repaired rr hexes. - totally agree, as soon as partisans get close to combat ready they spawn; not worth the flights and supplies.

[tyronec]

Partisans: a few thoughts, way to many and a waste. Game should automatically merged them to make them stronger and auto move them closer to repaired rr hexes. - totally agree, as soon as partisans get close to combat ready they spawn; not worth the flights and supplies.

Partisans are a pain in the neck for both players. The most uninteresting part of my move is shuffling garrisons around every turn to make a few available to chase partisans down. Increasing the number of partisans appearing would just increase this tiresome but totally unskilled activity.
If you want to move the game balance towards the Soviets and increase the partisan effect then do it some other way, like increasing city garrisons and having a more severe penalty if they are not met (e.g. a rail modifier for every city left ungarrisoned).
WITE2 has a better system, the impact is there but the players don't have to waste time on it.
Am sure we can all think of games where partisans have a seriously detrimental effect on the player experience.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

So these 2 house rules would be good then with 12.x?

* No bombing of Airbases after the first turn plus Soviets can not bomb airbases on the first turn

* No bombing of any hex not attacked by ground forces in the turn. (specifically pertains to "Air Ground Attack", City attack not affected). The only exception to this is U2's which can bomb with impunity at night any hex.

Or what would you do for a house rule.

[eskuche]

That sounds like a draconian limitation of air usage and disproportionately affects Soviet players who will still keep planes on-field to drain 20-30% of supply/fuel a turn. All one has to do is keep bases 19 hexes out and Axis is good to go.

[tyronec]

The air war is advantage Soviet IMO, however Axis can adapt to it. I don't know where the game balance lies but Axis seem to be doing OK, so starting a game I would be willing to play either side as is.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

The air war is advantage Soviet IMO, however Axis can adapt to it. I don't know where the game balance lies but Axis seem to be doing OK, so starting a game I would be willing to play either side as is.

I currently have a game as a German & was looking at playing one as Soviets for the 2nd one. So you are saying Tyronec to leave the current air rules alone?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

That sounds like a draconian limitation of air usage and disproportionately affects Soviet players who will still keep planes on-field to drain 20-30% of supply/fuel a turn. All one has to do is keep bases 19 hexes out and Axis is good to go.

Could be, but I think the Soviet Air power is over the top. But that is just me. Maybe you are right.

[eskuche]

If it’s not properly countered then yeah it will snowball quick and hard. I do think ground bombing needs some rebalancing. I favor strengthening flak because that introduces a play-counterplay mechanic. Currently no number of flak will prevent IL-2 runs from racking up 100-200 kills and 10 tubes per sortie.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

If it’s not properly countered then yeah it will snowball quick and hard. I do think ground bombing needs some rebalancing. I favor strengthening flak because that introduces a play-counterplay mechanic. Currently no number of flak will prevent IL-2 runs from racking up 100-200 kills and 10 tubes per sortie.

I normally see much higher kills than what you posted, about double. Hence why I was saying for the Soviets to have some skin in the game by having to attack the hex too to be able to ground bomb the hex.

[eskuche]

I don't doubt it! I'm maxing out my tac bombers every turn so they're a bit fatigued for (ideally) overall more casualties. My highest was I think 250, and this is just in 1941.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I don't doubt it! I'm maxing out my tac bombers every turn so they're a bit fatigued for (ideally) overall more casualties. My highest was I think 250, and this is just in 1941.

I have had 470+ in 1941. There is a trick to it and when people figure it out I'm sure more will jump on the house rule of limiting the amount of IL2 ground bombing. Because in 42 it gets worse

[eskuche]

Sure, turn 1-2 40-plane regiments, wiggle your ears twice and click your heels thrice before committing planes, and use the best air commanders. That's all there is to is to it!

In seriousness, though, 42 x 20-plane regiments can knock out 10,000 jerries and about half the arms point production each turn in guns easily without optimization. Maybe axis needs to rush Voronezh and only triple-stack units!

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: eskuche

If it’s not properly countered then yeah it will snowball quick and hard. I do think ground bombing needs some rebalancing. I favor strengthening flak because that introduces a play-counterplay mechanic. Currently no number of flak will prevent IL-2 runs from racking up 100-200 kills and 10 tubes per sortie.

I normally see much higher kills than what you posted, about double. Hence why I was saying for the Soviets to have some skin in the game by having to attack the hex too to be able to ground bomb the hex.

The Soviets do have some skin in the game in that they have to place a div adjacent to raise the detection level to 10. Units close to the front in 41-42 are candidates for pocketing next turn.