Understanding Supply

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The Land
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by The Land »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi - glad you liked the post! It is the case - this is what I think explains what you are seeing. All regular ports have an underlying value of 10. Occupied ports have the Occupational Efficiency factor is applied first and then reduction in their maximum to 5 for not having a rail link to a friendly Major Capital etc. The same sequence applies to occupied overseas ports as to occupied ports on the mainland of Europe.

This is why if the Axis captures Leningrad and establishes a rail link from Berlin through Finland to Norway, the Norwegian ports on a rail line, like Oslo, rise to 8, while those Norwegian ports not on a rail line, like Kristiansand, remain at 5. The same thing would happen if the Axis occupies Egypt and the Middle East and then brings Turkey into the war on the Axis side. The occupied Egyptian ports on a rail line, like Alexandria, would rise to 8.

OK, got it! That makes sense.

It might be worth expanding your point 1 on "why Supply matters" - something along the lines of:

Supply is crucial in sustaining your units' ability to fight. A unit's Combat Readiness affects how much damage it deals, and Readiness is determined by the lower of Strength and Supply.

This means that a unit with Supply 5 will gradually fall to 50% readiness and stay there - dealing half damage. At Supply 3, it will fall to 30% readiness. Further, units in low supply lose one Action Point, making them more difficult to handle - particularly in adverse terrain. Units in low Supply fare very badly against well-supplied units in combat.

If a unit is eliminated in low Supply, it costs full price to rebuild, not 50%.

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Hubert Cater
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Thanks, Hubert. Something to think about in a future patch is simply eliminating Industrial Centers and Primary Supply Centers in Minor Powers altogether, so that there is no need for a rule to cover them as special cases. In the War in Europe game, there are no Primary Supply Centers outside the Major Powers (Ottawa is a Minor Capital, not a Primary Supply Source). And as I noted above, the only two Industrial Centers in Minors that I could find are St. John's and Kalamata. I have a specific suggestion regarding St. John's which I will make in a separate thread. As for Kalamata, it seems an anomaly to me that it is an Industrial Center - I find it hard to imagine many circumstances when the controlling player would want to build a Greek unit there if it was cut off from Athens. It would be simpler just to make it a Secondary Supply Center. I have briefly looked at the WW1 game and World at War maps and could not find other examples of Industrial Centers or Primary Supply Centers in other Minors in those games, so this might be an easy tweak to make across all three games.

I see what you are saying here, at the same time though, my feeling is more of this is just the rule for Minors, rather than a special rule.

For example, by default, all Capitals are also considered in game/code terms the same as Primary supply centers when it comes to the supply rules, e.g. if you take a peak in the Editor, all Capitals (not the alternates) are also listed automatically in the Primary list. Yet Minor Capitals also max out at 5 when disconnected from a Major. Essentially, it is just the rule for Minors, they max out at 5 all around, e.g. Capital, Primary, Industrial, until connected to a Major etc.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

Hi Michael,

Forgot to add a response on adding screenshots. There is a built in tool in Windows called Snip that you can use to 'snip' out images on your screen, and then save them to your PC.

This site here allows you to create forum friendly links to your images after you upload them to the site.

https://imgbb.com/

Just be sure to select 'BBcode full linked' when selecting the type options.

The generated link can then be copied and embedded in your post and it should pop up the screenshot as needed after that.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

Just wanted to add a quick thank you for your list as well, and to note that I've now amended my post #2 a little bit to reflect the recent patch as well as to put things into a more logical order.

Notable changes, HQ boosting now requires an HQ to have a supply value >= 3 (previously it was > 0), and to compensate we added in the new LOW SUPPLY boosting rule also noted above in my post #2.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hi Hubert - I am very glad to hear you found my list above useful. And thank you for pointing out the new LOW SUPPLY rule, released in the latest patch to the WW1 game. However the following aspect of it puzzles me (quoting from your revised post at the top of this thread):

"a) the HQ to be boosted must have a supply value < 3 and is now automatically increased to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 6."

If the HQ receiving the boost has its supply value increased to 5, would not its distribution supply value be 8 rather 6?

Michael

PS - I am still working on how to paste items from the Clipboard to this Forum. If/when I figure out how to do it on the machine I am using, I will past some screenshots showing the supply anomalies I explained above.

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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

Thanks for this list mdsmall! You really put a lot of work into it and enhanced what the Devs have done in a concise way. [8D]

Major Ports and regular Ports that do not have a connection by rail to one the above friendly Major supply sources have their maximum level reduced to 5. (This is the reason why ports in Scandinavia, on islands in the Mediterranean, in North Africa, the Middle East and Canada all start the game at level 5).


Taking Leningrad is all so important to boosting all though resources in Scandinavia. (At least those ones in the rail net that is.) This statement I was going to post earlier but I see you already covered that in a later post. Anyway, your summary is easy to understand and its appreciated.

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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall
Hi Hubert - I am very glad to hear you found my list above useful. And thank you for pointing out the new LOW SUPPLY rule, released in the latest patch to the WW1 game.

Oops, I had the releases mixed up and forgot that the War in Europe patch is soon to be released as well. Either way, what I updated post #2 will soon be reflected officially in War in Europe as well as it is for WWI and World at War.
However the following aspect of it puzzles me (quoting from your revised post at the top of this thread):

"a) the HQ to be boosted must have a supply value < 3 and is now automatically increased to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 6."

If the HQ receiving the boost has its supply value increased to 5, would not its distribution supply value be 8 rather 6?

No and only because this is the new LOW SUPPLY boosting rule, e.g. when an HQ is boosted from another HQ that has a supply value < 3, then the distribution is capped at 6 instead of the usual 8.

The reason for this is that there was a consensus that in these low supply situations for HQs, boosting to 8 was too high, but at the same time we didn't want to change how boosting worked for any other situation, thus the new additional rule here where we could pretty much leave everything else as is.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Ok - I think I get it now. I have tried rewriting the relevant paragraph from my notes above, in order to capture this new provision for low supply and combine it in the same paragraph with the rules for the existing case (which I am calling "medium supply" ). Is this correct? If so, I will edit my post above to reflect this new rule.

----

21. In certain circumstances, two HQs can form a supply chain in which one HQ boosts the supply it receives from second HQ, as follows:

A) LOW SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it will distribute a supply of 5 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 6 to other units in range.

B) MEDIUM SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 3 or 4, it will distribute a supply of 6 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 8 to other units in range.

Note that only two HQs can be linked in a chain in this way. Both HQs must have a strength of at least 3. Within the chain, the HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by BillRunacre »

Great work Michael! [:)]
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Ok - I think I get it now. I have tried rewriting the relevant paragraph from my notes above, in order to capture this new provision for low supply and combine it in the same paragraph with the rules for the existing case (which I am calling "medium supply" ). Is this correct? If so, I will edit my post above to reflect this new rule.

----

21. In certain circumstances, two HQs can form a supply chain in which one HQ boosts the supply it receives from second HQ, as follows:

A) LOW SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it will distribute a supply of 5 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 6 to other units in range.

B) MEDIUM SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 3 or 4, it will distribute a supply of 6 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 8 to other units in range.

Note that only two HQs can be linked in a chain in this way. Both HQs must have a strength of at least 3. Within the chain, the HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.

Thanks for this but not quite.

For B), it still boosts the connected HQ to 5, not 6, with a distribution supply of 8. I would probably reword them to something like this as well to remain consistent with the difference between 'supply' and 'distribution supply' for HQs. I also included some corrections and other changes, feel free to amend further as you see fit, these are just suggestions.


A) HQ BOOSTING: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply >= 3, it can boost the supply of a second low supply HQ from any value < 5 to 5, which can then distribute supply of 8 to other units in range.

B) LOW SUPPLY HQ BOOSTING (SPECIAL CASE): If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it can boost the supply of a second low supply HQ from any value < 3 to 5, which can then distribute supply of 6 to other units in range.

The HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.



Note, I also removed the mention on strengths as this does not apply or factor into the boosting requirements/rules.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hubert - Let me double check two more points with you arising from this latest revision to the HQ boosting new rules.

First, in both cases, can the second HQ in the chain have an incoming supply of 0 before it is raised to 5? My inference is no - otherwise the distance between the two HQs could be unlimited.

Second, in the low supply case, could the second HQ have an incoming supply of 4 or 5? I just tested this out using an updated version of the WW1 game and the supply chaining still worked. However, as expected, the second HQ had its supply capped at 5 which it boosted to 6. If this is correct, then you don't need the reference to the second HQ having an incoming supply "from any value <3". But (as per my first point), the second HQ does have to have an incoming supply value > 0.

Grateful if you could confirm or correct this.

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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

1) Yes, the second HQ can have 0 before it is boosted. The 'distance' determination on whether it qualifies for a boost is that needs to be within 'distribution supply' range of the first HQ. So no, the distance cannot be unlimited.

2) No it cannot, because if it is already at an incoming supply value > 3 then it already has 'distribution supply' >= 6, so there is no point in being 'boosted' by the first HQ when it comes to the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case situation.

However, if the first HQ is not a low supply HQ, then naturally the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case doesn't even apply in the first place, and the regular boosting rules could apply etc.

Hopefully this makes sense and helps,
Hubert
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hi Hubert - let me probe your answers a bit further to understand how this plays out on the board.
ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

1) Yes, the second HQ can have 0 before it is boosted. The 'distance' determination on whether it qualifies for a boost is that needs to be within 'distribution supply' range of the first HQ. So no, the distance cannot be unlimited.

2) No it cannot, because if it is already at an incoming supply value > 3 then it already has 'distribution supply' >= 6, so there is no point in being 'boosted' by the first HQ when it comes to the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case situation.

1. As I understand it, supply range is determined by the number of action points required to move from the source of supply (in this case the first HQ) and the unit receiving supply (in this case the second HQ). Under what circumstances could a second HQ be at zero supply while still being in supply range of the first HQ in the chain?

2. Except that seems to be how the game engine presently works. I just tested this out by placing two HQs on a road. The first HQ had an incoming supply of 2 (from a friendly occupied town) so its supply distribution was 5, as per the new low supply rule. The second HQ was one hex away on the road, so it's incoming supply was 4. If the first HQ was not in a low supply situation, the second HQ should have had a supply level of 6 which it would distribute at 8. However, the second HQ had its supply level capped at 5 and its distribution level was 6. The same applied when I moved the second HQ two hexes away on the road. So, as far as I can see, a second HQ chained to a HQ that is in a low supply situation will have a supply level of 5 and a distribution supply of 6, no matter where it is located (provided it is in range of the first HQ). That's why I suggested in explaining the rule dropping the reference to the incoming supply value needing to be >3 for the low supply rule.

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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

1) I think the mix up in understanding here is I'm guessing you believe HQs supply one another? e.g. prior to boosting? This is not the case, HQs only receive supply from towns, cities and so on. After that, the only way an HQ can increase their supply is if they are boosted by another HQ. This is essentially the whole reason for the HQ boosting model.

So if you think about what I've listed above as the prerequisites for boosting then this should all make sense, e.g. an HQ can be at 0 before being boosted, but if they qualify for a chain, then the first HQ boosts the second HQ.

2) I think this also relates to my explanation outlined in 1), e.g. both HQs are receiving supply from the town. The first HQ receives a supply value of 2. The second HQ as it is one hex over receives a supply value of 1. Both HQs qualify for a LOW BOOST supply situation, whereby HQ #1 will boost HQ #2. HQ #1 is correctly set to a supply distribution value of 5, whereas HQ #2, since it was boosted by HQ #1 is bumped to 5, with a distribution value of 6.
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hi Hubert - I think you put your finger on it. I had been reading the rules to mean that the first HQ in a chain is the supply source for the second HQ. If the source of supply is the town (or port) that is supplying the first HQ in a chain, then everything else falls into place. It explains how a second HQ could have a supply of 0 (from the town) but still be within the supply range of the first HQ. And it explains what is happening when two adjacent low supply HQs in a chain are in fact drawing supply from the same town.

I take it this means that while HQs do supply other land units in range, but they do not in fact supply each other. (And since a HQ receiving 0 supply can raise its own supply to 3, they do not ever need to supply each other). Instead, what they can do is boost the supply that a second HQ in a chain can distribute to other units.

I will look at your patch notes at the top of this thread and in the latest update to the game and see how to convey that in a simple yet accurate way, so other players don't fall down this particular rabbit-hole after me! Thanks for your patience.

Cheers,

Michael
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

No worries at all, and yes, I believe you've got it now [:)]
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hi Hubert - so, based on the above discussion on the new "low supply boosting" rule, I have redrafted the relevant paragraphs from my "Notes on Supply" covering supply from HQs and HQ supply boosting. I have pasted my rewrite below. Grateful if you could double check this text to confirm hat it captures the letter and spirit of the rules correctly. If so, I will update my notes above and will repost them as a new thread on the WW1 Forum, so that new readers don't have to go to the end of this very long thread to find them.

-------

Supply from HQs

19. HQ units are also a source of supply. HQs take the supply they receive from their nearest supply source and then distribute it at a higher level to other units in their supply range. This supply boosting feature of HQs makes them especially valuable when your units are operating at or beyond the range of supply from friendly urban resources or ports.

20: You can see these two different supply values for an HQ if you click on it. The HQ's incoming supply level is listed first, followed in brackets by its supply distribution level. Thus, if a HQ unit has a supply of "5 (8)", its incoming supply is 5 and the supply it distributes is 8.

21. The maximum supply that a HQ distributes to other units depends on the strength of the HQ and its incoming supply. Full strength HQs distribute supply according to the following scale:

Incoming supply: 0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10

22. Under certain conditions, one HQ can boost the supply distributed by a second HQ that is within its supply range. Only two HQs can be linked this way to form a supply chain. Within a chain, the HQ with the lower command rating boosts the supply distributed by the higher rated HQ. (If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.) Supply boosting between two HQs applies:

a) If the first HQ has an incoming supply of 1 or 2 and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 3, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 5(6).

b) If the first HQ has an incoming supply 3 or more and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 5, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 6(8).
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

Hi Michael!

This is fantastic [:)]

1) I would only suggest to change one line here:

This supply boosting feature of HQs makes them especially valuable...

to:

The supply distribution feature of HQs makes them especially valuable...

Only because we typically use 'boosting' to refer to one HQ boosting another HQ for the HQ chaining and this might help limit/prevent any confusion here if it remains consistent to only use that word for that particular case.


2) And the only correction I can see is for the very last line, which should read will have its supply boosted to 5(8), instead of 6(8).


Thanks again,
Hubert

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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by mdsmall »

Hi Hubert - that's great. Many thanks for those two corrections. I have now updated my notes post above. I will re-postt hem onto the WW1 Forum. I think the only differences between that game and this one is a slight difference in supply for amphibious landings. If there are more differences, please do point them out to me.

Best regards,

Michael
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RE: Understanding Supply

Post by Hubert Cater »

Great stuff Michael, and I don't believe there are any differences for Amphibious Transports for WWI. However, I may have forgotten something here, what difference were you thinking there was? I can then double check the code and confirm.
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