Strange battle in China

[Yaab]

Scen 001v5
Allies

The opening battle in Tsingsing yielded a baffling result.
I got soundly beaten but inflicted lots of casualties on Japs,
even though I had tons of (-) modifiers.



Ground combat at Tsingsing (90,40)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28266 troops, 281 guns, 101 vehicles, Assault Value = 905
Defending force 2557 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 112

Japanese adjusted assault: 611
Allied adjusted defense: 13

Japanese assault odds: 47 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsingsing !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), preparation(-), morale(-)experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
2002 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 208 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled

Allied ground losses:
975 casualties reported
Squads: 40 destroyed, 105 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Assaulting units:
41st Division
37th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1/19th Chinese Corps

[BBfanboy]

Never heard of Tsingsing and it is not on the base list in stock, so I cannot check the terrain type.
It looks to me like your unit fled before the full weight of combat fell on it. The terrain may have helped them survive the initial firing (artillery) and allowed them to inflict lots of casualties before running - I am guessing wooded rough terrain, or maybe mountain. You got good die rolls too.

[Yaab]

It is a base added by AndyMac in his updated scen001. The terrain is Mountain.

Actually, my rolls were dire. You alwyas benefit from the terrain(+) modifier, so all other rolls went against me, yet still I inflicted 2000 casualties on the Japs. I checked my notes for this battle, and the previous casualties record was 400. Go figure

[RangerJoe]

The enemy also shock attacked which can drastically increase their damage. At the start of that battle, the raw AV as about 8:1 in the enemy's favor and then yours was tripled due to the terrain plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.

[Psaeko]

Do note that the enemy suffered relatively few destructions. With some support, those Japanese disabled squads can be recovered relatively quickly compared to complete destruction.

EDIT: To add onto that, it is always useful to remember that the final AV comparison only decides the final battle result (retreat, fort reduction, collapsing assault). Devices in LCUs deal their damage independently from that. A good example is Japanese tank action against Chinese units that lack AT weaponry. An assault might end with odds stacked heavily against the Japanese, but end in the suppression or destruction of a large number of Chinese squads with barely any tank losses. That is one of the reason I've seen Alfred and other veterans argue against looking at AV scores as the end-all for troop strength.

[rustysi]

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.

Level one forts are a 10% boost.

[rustysi]

Never heard of Tsingsing and it is not on the base list in stock

Sing Sing is a prison in upstate NY. Its not on the map because its in the eastern USA.[:D]

[rustysi]

All that said, I don't really see anything unusual about the battle.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.

Level one forts are a 10% boost.

I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: rustysi

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.

Level one forts are a 10% boost.

I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

I am remembering the same as rustysi - 10% for the first level and 15% for the next level and 20% per level thereafter? I remember pegging level 5 forts as the point where you get past a full 1X increase in defensive AV.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: rustysi



Level one forts are a 10% boost.

I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

I am remembering the same as rustysi - 10% for the first level and 15% for the next level and 20% per level thereafter? I remember pegging level 5 forts as the point where you get past a full 1X increase in defensive AV.

I looked in a pdf manual plus I searched for "fortification" and "defensive bonus" but I could not find the percentages.

[jdsrae]

I made these notes for myself back in 2017, but subtract marks because I didn't include the reference.

Oops, let me just shrink that image...

[RangerJoe]

Thank you.

[geofflambert]

Made a copy of that jdsrae, thanks.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All that said, I don't really see anything unusual about the battle.

Normally, this opening battle goes like this:


Ground combat at Tsingsing (90,40)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28266 troops, 281 guns, 101 vehicles, Assault Value = 905
Defending force 2557 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 112

Japanese adjusted assault: 720
Allied adjusted defense: 13

Japanese assault odds: 55 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsingsing !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
177 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2348 casualties reported
Squads: 83 destroyed, 52 disabled
Non Combat: 44 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (8 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
41st Division
37th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1/19th Chinese Corps

[rustysi]

Normally, this opening battle goes like this:

I see several less (-)'s up there, could just be more die rolls passed.

Besides what's normal in this game? I stopped looking for that a long time ago.

[RangerJoe]

Besides what's normal in this game? . . .

To expect the unexpected.[;)]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Besides what's normal in this game? . . .

To expect the unexpected.[;)]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. But really they should if answerable to Madrid.

Alfred

[Yaab]

For a momemnt I thought my good shooting was owing to Japs overstacking the hex.

I play with the stacking limits. The hex stacking limit is 35,000. Jap troops in total occupy 34,000 space. Does land overstacking only incur supply penalties? Seems to me it could also work like an overstacked airfield being bombarded by ships - more casualties for overstacking side.