Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

No I didn't, I wanted Montenegro to be represented as it would feel wrong to not have a country in the game that fought. Secondly because they are often forgotten about and I didn't want to add to that. As far as I'm concerned, they may have been small, but they deserve to be in there.

To judge by the number of posts in this thread, there is no fear of them being forgotten in this game!

If Cetinje falls, could you have Montenegro's capital move to one of the Serbian capitals, say Nish or Uskub, reflecting Montenegro's king taking his government into exile? It seems perverse that the only free units that would fight on are ones that were outside of Montenegro when its capital falls.

Actually when I tested this, even Montenegrin unit outside Montenegro did surrender. Not sure why, though. Other Minor's units (Belgium, Serbia) continue the fight abroad.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I am just reading up on this subject now. Can I just ask - did you ever consider treating Serbia and Montenegro as a single country for the purposes of this game, where military considerations are paramount?

No I didn't, I wanted Montenegro to be represented as it would feel wrong to not have a country in the game that fought.

Secondly because they are often forgotten about and I didn't want to add to that. As far as I'm concerned, they may have been small, but they deserve to be in there. [:)]

I'm glad that Montenegro is depicted as having a separate national identity in this game...but I do understand that historically the Serbs took over a lot of operational control of Montenegro's military. Lets not forget the French, who also had a abiding interest in Montenegro...and were also present there in a modest way in 1914 on.

This is reflected in game I surmised by the fact that the 'Sanjak' corp and other Montenegrin units can be placed under a French HQ, which I have done many times when I had to intervene with Entente forces to try to save the situation in the Balkans.

Also, there is the curious case of the Sanjak of Novi Pazar...a subdivision of the Ottoman Empire that was partitioned almost equally by Montenegro and Serbia after the First Balkan War. I think this so called 'Sanjak' corp represents the disparate elements that resided there, including Slav muslims and other groups that joined Montenegro's cause.

Lastly...having the detachment at Cetinje entrenched at the beginning will be a help...and will give time to think about and test the other excellent solutions presented on this thread to gain game balance in a conservative and measured way.

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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

This is reflected in game I surmised by the fact that the 'Sanjak' corp and other Montenegrin units can be placed under a French HQ, which I have done many times when I had to intervene with Entente forces to try to save the situation in the Balkans.

Do you mean that a French HQ can provide its command bonus to Montenegrin units? If so, how, given that it is a Serbian minor?

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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

..I have done it many times. I noticed this since the game came out. I'll see if I can find an example later..I have a lot of screenshots or I can pull one of my tests a show it later on.

I sometimes got the French HQ Dubayl over to Tirana to support a French expeditionary force going in...and been able to attach the Sanjak corp to him.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

I wonder how this is possible, given that minors are supposed to be controlled by a designated Major - which for Montenegro is Serbia. Could this somehow be a consequence of the DE which gives the Serbians the choice of putting General Jankovic in charge of the Serbian or the Montenegrin forces?
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

Here's the French HQ Dubail newly transported to Tirana with a French corp in tow... with 3 Montenegrin units under attachment, including the Sanjak corp which just deployed previously on Sept 5 1915. If I can get help to the Serbs and Montenegrins this way via Albania..I do this. Of course, it depends on how dire or not the situation is on the Western Front.

This image is from an old MP...I keep these as a reference. [:)] That French corp is intended for Cetinje..but if there's a problem deeper in Serbia, I would sent it that way, mindful to keep it under the French HQ if possible.

Edit: mdsmall, I don't know the answer to your previous post concerning Gen. Jankovik...but I'm curious about that also.

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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by Chernobyl »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall
I wonder how this is possible, given that minors are supposed to be controlled by a designated Major

If you go into the editor and click on Campaign -> Country Data, if you select Serbia the "Attachable Minors?" checkbox is unchecked. Serbia is the ONLY major country that has this box unchecked. I assume it's intentional and not a mistake because of the 'Montenegro or Serbia HQ?' decision.

From my testing entrenchment doesn't improve defense of Cetinje nearly as much as 1. Unit Strength and 2. Readiness from being attached to a HQ. I think from a gamebalance perspective it would be an improvement to check that box and give Serbia the ability to command minor units from the start.

What exactly is the logic behind Serbia not being able to command minor nations' units? Is it because Albanians and Serbians aren't friendly?
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl
ORIGINAL: mdsmall
I wonder how this is possible, given that minors are supposed to be controlled by a designated Major

If you go into the editor and click on Campaign -> Country Data, if you select Serbia the "Attachable Minors?" checkbox is unchecked. Serbia is the ONLY major country that has this box unchecked. I assume it's intentional and not a mistake because of the 'Montenegro or Serbia HQ?' decision.

From my testing entrenchment doesn't improve defense of Cetinje nearly as much as 1. Unit Strength and 2. Readiness from being attached to a HQ. I think from a gamebalance perspective it would be an improvement to check that box and give Serbia the ability to command minor units from the start.

What exactly is the logic behind Serbia not being able to command minor nations' units? Is it because Albanians and Serbians aren't friendly?

Hmmm...I've wondered about Serbia not being able to command minor nation units. Makes sense for Montenegro....but probably not desirable for let's say Greek or Rumanian units that arrive in theater.

As for the Albanians, yes that would be a problem for both the Serbs and Albanians to agree with anything....especially since there was a nascent Albanian irredendist movement that included a Greater Albania...which would include Kosovo.

Balkan politics could be the reason the box was left unchecked haha,
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

What exactly is the logic behind Serbia not being able to command minor nations' units? Is it because Albanians and Serbians aren't friendly?

So, if the above observations are correct, a Serbian HQ can not command Montenegrin units but a French HQ can? That seems like a glitch, not a feature.

The game already makes provision for tensions between Serbia and Albania by making Albania a minor of Russia, not Serbia. But Montenegro is a minor of Serbia. Seems to me that either Serbian general should be able to command the Montenegrin units from turn 1.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by shri »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall
ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

What exactly is the logic behind Serbia not being able to command minor nations' units? Is it because Albanians and Serbians aren't friendly?

So, if the above observations are correct, a Serbian HQ can not command Montenegrin units but a French HQ can? That seems like a glitch, not a feature.

The game already makes provision for tensions between Serbia and Albania by making Albania a minor of Russia, not Serbia. But Montenegro is a minor of Serbia. Seems to me that either Serbian general should be able to command the Montenegrin units from turn 1.

Monte, Albania, Romania all can become minors of Russia would be a better fix. This would allow Serbia to spend only on repairing its own units not the others.

If a Russian general came to the Balkans, all would obey him, but the Serbs wouldn't obey Romanians, Albanians wouldn't obey a Serb, Greeks wouldn't obey all of them and so on.. TLDR of the 1st and 2nd Balkan wars. The French formed the little entente post WW1 rather unsuccessfully, but theoretically it did work for sometime. I guess that's why they get attached to French HQs
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: Bavre
Actually when I tested this, even Montenegrin unit outside Montenegro did surrender. Not sure why, though. Other Minor's units (Belgium, Serbia) continue the fight abroad.

Yes, currently Montenegrin units are only set to have a 20% chance of fighting on from exile, so I would have to increase that % if this were the answer, but I'm not sure it is the answer due to the requirement that they be outside Montenegro when Montenegro surrenders in order for them to stay in the fight.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall
To judge by the number of posts in this thread, there is no fear of them being forgotten in this game!

If Cetinje falls, could you have Montenegro's capital move to one of the Serbian capitals, say Nish or Uskub, reflecting Montenegro's king taking his government into exile? It seems perverse that the only free units that would fight on are ones that were outside of Montenegro when its capital falls.

Moving the capital to Nish isn't really feasible, as that is a Serbian alternative capital already.

Regarding the Free Unit rule, the thing is that if units didn't have to be in exile when their country surrenders in order to have a chance to become Free Units, then the country wouldn't really be surrendering.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Regarding the Free Unit rule, the thing is that if units didn't have to be in exile when their country surrenders in order to have a chance to become Free Units, then the country wouldn't really be surrendering.

I don't see the logic why Free Units have to be outside the borders of their home country. When a country surrenders, its government ceases to exercise control over its territory. In game terms, the minor ceases to collect any income, control of all empty hexes shifts to the enemy, supply is no longer provided from unoccupied resources to the side which controls the surrendering minor, and new minor units can no longer be built. Those are all very significant consequences of surrender.

But I don't see why remaining units still occupying territory inside the surrendering country could not fight on, if they survived a die roll determination to see if they remained Free Units. This is especially true if the surrendering minor shares a land border with a Major belonging to the same side which could continue to supply them, e.g. in the case of Belgian units being supplied from France, Romanian units being supplied from Russia or Montenegrin units being supplied from Serbia.

Take the following situation: Cetinje looks likely to fall on the next CP turn. If two Montenegrin units remain in Montenegro, then Montenegro would have only 12% chance of not surrendering the following turn and all subsequent turns. But if the Entente player moves the two units into Serbia, they have a 20% chance of surviving indefinitely as Free Units. The game logic would be to move the Montenegrin units outside their own country to increase their odds of survival and use Serbian units to defend any remaining strategically important hexes in Montenegro. This seems perverse. If the determination of whether a unit fights on as a Free Unit after surrender was not tied to that unit's location, then the Entente player would have an equal chance of keeping the Montenegrin units alive by having them defend Montenegro.
Surely units should be at least as motivated to fight on as Free Units if they are still defending some of their own territory as they would if they had fled into exile.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by BillRunacre »

Hi Michael

For units fighting on within their own country to have any feasibility, they would have to retain control of some resources in order to have supply, which means the resources would not surrender either. Or checks would have to be in place, e.g. (say) any resources without a friendly unit within one hex surrender?

But what if in a larger country than Montenegro there are units (and therefore resources they occupy/are close to) near the enemy that don't surrender, but resources behind the front line with no friendly units in them, and the enemy may not yet be anywhere near them.

Do these resources surrender or remain in friendly hands when the country surrenders? If they remain in friendly hands, who do they belong to as there are no units present to designate the controller?

It could all get a bit complicated, and is much easier to handle either by using alternative capitals, or there is a setting in the Editor that means no country will surrender if its capitals are captured. It's a global setting so would apply to all countries, i.e. it can't be set for just Montenegro. You can always experiment with this.

Essentially the concept behind Free Units is not to encourage the evacuation of a country, but to reflect that some/all of an army has the fighting spirit to continue the war from exile. Or to put it another way, soldiers will first and foremost want to defend their own soil, not evacuate it and let it be conquered if there is an option, and this should be encouraged as much as possible.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by The Land »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


I don't see the logic why Free Units have to be outside the borders of their home country.

Imagine France surrendering in 1940. It would be weird if a bunch of French Army and Corps units in random places of Metropolitan France said "No, we are fighting on, despite our orders to surrender".

It's the same mechanic at play in both situations. Maybe that illustrates the issue!
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi Michael

For units fighting on within their own country to have any feasibility, they would have to retain control of some resources in order to have supply, which means the resources would not surrender either. Or checks would have to be in place, e.g. (say) any resources without a friendly unit within one hex surrender?

But what if in a larger country than Montenegro there are units (and therefore resources they occupy/are close to) near the enemy that don't surrender, but resources behind the front line with no friendly units in them, and the enemy may not yet be anywhere near them.

Do these resources surrender or remain in friendly hands when the country surrenders? If they remain in friendly hands, who do they belong to as there are no units present to designate the controller?

It could all get a bit complicated, and is much easier to handle either by using alternative capitals, or there is a setting in the Editor that means no country will surrender if its capitals are captured. It's a global setting so would apply to all countries, i.e. it can't be set for just Montenegro. You can always experiment with this.

Essentially the concept behind Free Units is not to encourage the evacuation of a country, but to reflect that some/all of an army has the fighting spirit to continue the war from exile. Or to put it another way, soldiers will first and foremost want to defend their own soil, not evacuate it and let it be conquered if there is an option, and this should be encouraged as much as possible.

Hmm well, in light of that there seems to be no really smooth solution here. It's either weird semi-surrenders like Bill described or a big incentive to literally defend a minor with anything but its own units.
ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

If you go into the editor and click on Campaign -> Country Data, if you select Serbia the "Attachable Minors?" checkbox is unchecked. Serbia is the ONLY major country that has this box unchecked. I assume it's intentional and not a mistake because of the 'Montenegro or Serbia HQ?' decision.

Thanks for clearing that up! Has puzzled me for a while now. So this whole Jankovic decision + Serbia beeing unable to control other units was just a method to model balkan politics and animosities into the game.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: The Land

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


I don't see the logic why Free Units have to be outside the borders of their home country.

Imagine France surrendering in 1940. It would be weird if a bunch of French Army and Corps units in random places of Metropolitan France said "No, we are fighting on, despite our orders to surrender".

It's the same mechanic at play in both situations. Maybe that illustrates the issue!

The idea in principle of having Free Units fight on inside their own country does not seem weird to me at all. If an already formed unit is not defeated, has a supply source it controls and has the morale to keep fighting after its government surrenders, why shouldn't it? No one thinks it is weird to have Free Units re-invade their country in order to try to liberate it, as the Free French did in 1944 as part of the invading Allies.

In the specific and important case of France in 1940, the critical difference is that a successor French government to the Third Republic was established in Vichy. French Army and Navy units were expected to remain loyal to the new regime in Vichy and many did. In game terms, you can avoid having French units fighting on in Metropolitan France after the Germans accept Marshall Petain's surrender by deeming that the Vichy government disbands them as part of the terms of recognizing Vichy France's control of its new borders. (It might make for a very interesting "what if" if those units could join the Free French - but that's a thought to pursue in another Forum!).


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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: Bavre

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

If you go into the editor and click on Campaign -> Country Data, if you select Serbia the "Attachable Minors?" checkbox is unchecked. Serbia is the ONLY major country that has this box unchecked. I assume it's intentional and not a mistake because of the 'Montenegro or Serbia HQ?' decision.

Thanks for clearing that up! Has puzzled me for a while now. So this whole Jankovic decision + Serbia beeing unable to control other units was just a method to model balkan politics and animosities into the game.

That's how I'm seeing this, Bavre. I like this how it stands. It's part of the nuances that are embedded in the game.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by mdsmall »

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Essentially the concept behind Free Units is not to encourage the evacuation of a country, but to reflect that some/all of an army has the fighting spirit to continue the war from exile. Or to put it another way, soldiers will first and foremost want to defend their own soil, not evacuate it and let it be conquered if there is an option, and this should be encouraged as much as possible.

Bill - I completely agree with your point quoted above. My point though is that the current rules create an incentive for players to not let soldiers of minors defend their own soil, and to move them instead into exile, in order to avoid having them disappear when their government surrenders. If a minor's last capital is about to be captured, this is a very rational strategy as their chance of surviving one random check as Free Units will be much higher than their chances of surviving a surrender check every turn inside their own country when its last capital has fallen.

On your query about supply, I don't think this creates any complications. When a country surrenders, all of its resource hexes shift control to the conquering side unless they are physically occupied by the opposing player. This need not change if the units doing the occupying are Free Units fighting on after their government has surrendered, or units belonging to an enemy Major.

Imagine the following situation in Romania (to pick a larger minor than Montenegro). The Central Powers have captured Bucharest a few turns ago and have just captured Romania's Alternate Capital in Jassy. The Entente have a Russian corps occupying Galati and there is a remaining Romanian detachment entrenched in the port town of Constanta. In the existing rules, the Russian corps would remain in Galati and in control of that resource, while the Romanian detachment would disappear as soon as the Romanian government surrendered. If Jassy looked likely to fall, in the previous turn the Entente player would have been wise to evacuate the Romanian detachment to Sevastopol in the hope that it survived as a Free Unit.

What I am arguing for is to enable that Romanian detachment to do a Free Unit check after Romania surrenders, and if it survives, it continues to occupy Constanta and gets its supply from that resource. This seems to me a reasonable outcome. If it obliges the Central Powers to divert some forces to conquer Constanta even after Romania has surrendered, so be it. It seems more reasonable than allowing the Central Powers to ignore a unit behind its advancing front line because it knows once Romania's last capital has fallen, that unit will almost certainly disappear immediately.

The larger issue here - which connects most of the posts in this very long thread - is that the game consequences of a minor losing its capital are too immediate and too devastating, especially in a game where most other strategic decisions play out over many turns. In the Balkans at least, there should be options for the capital to move to an alternate location. And there should be the possibility of not all units disbanding immediately when a country surrenders.
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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


The idea in principle of having Free Units fight on inside their own country does not seem weird to me at all. If an already formed unit is not defeated, has a supply source it controls and has the morale to keep fighting after its government surrenders, why shouldn't it? No one thinks it is weird to have Free Units re-invade their country in order to try to liberate it, as the Free French did in 1944 as part of the invading Allies.

In the specific and important case of France in 1940, the critical difference is that a successor French government to the Third Republic was established in Vichy. French Army and Navy units were expected to remain loyal to the new regime in Vichy and many did. In game terms, you can avoid having French units fighting on in Metropolitan France after the Germans accept Marshall Petain's surrender by deeming that the Vichy government disbands them as part of the terms of recognizing Vichy France's control of its new borders. (It might make for a very interesting "what if" if those units could join the Free French - but that's a thought to pursue in another Forum!).

I think in the context of WW1 and even 1940 France this was probably not all that common, at least for the big powers. De Gaulle was initially (technically speaking) just the leader of a handful of renegades that defied their own legitimate government. It wasn't until Hitlers cruelty and madness fully descended upon occupied France that he was proven right and the free french movement gained traction.
Under normal (i.e. "non Hitler") circumstances the units of the surrendering side have a strong incentive to honor the decision of their government, since ignoring it gives the winning side a legit reason to not uphold their end of the peace deal. Apart from that I don't think such renegade soldiers are still considered regulars by the applicable war convention (Den Haag, Geneva, etc).
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