Axis fuel usage and production.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

So long story short, Axis may as well not go to Caucasus.
They won't run out of fuel! Soviets will still have fuel even if somehow Caucasus falls fully and wholly to Axis (Don't think in this game this is even possible anyhow).

Economics dictate wars way more operations, logistics and strategies.

well we've been around this many times - in the time frame of the game the Axis couldn't have repaired and connected the oilfields, by the time that is plausible the game is over (using the VP system)



Is this not still "conjecture"? Or do we have empirical evidence that what you wrote is the truth?


***** ***** ******


My test on Mozdok, Gronzy, Maikop, and Krasnodar, that repairing the rail line is a "non-factor" to these sites. Repairing the Oilfields on the 4 aforementioned oil sites are a bit more time consuming but very doable and can have production within the game scope. But this is just my test while I have been selling my house, buying a house, and preparing to move the last few weeks. But maybe my WITE2 plays different than other peoples WITE2. /shrug

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser44 »

One of the problems that WiTE2 had the last time I checked was that none of the captured Oil was getting transported to any of the refineries.

There are several that stand out from memory:

Drohobycz (6000 Oil)
Sonda (3000 Oil)
Narva (???? Oil)

Anyways, the last time I checked, this was still the case. Captured Oil stockpiles just sat there indefinitely.

Another (of many) issues raised, but ignored.

I haven't checked it again recently, but I doubt anything has changed.

Also, I believe you have to have a repaired rail link to the oil stockpile. (but feel free to double check)

Anyways, if Germany is not able to refine any of the captured oil stockpiles, I would expect to see that having an impact on available fuel reserves eventually.




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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Stamb
ORIGINAL: loki100

I maybe the only person to have played an axis game 41-45, so the chart in post #9 maybe informative in this regard?

Yes, can you tell what happened there? How did you stop losing fuel? If you did not capture any oil fields then it makes no sense.

I am playing GC without an early end. So in my case there is a point to go to Caucasus.

Also it would be nice if someone can explain what is going on in my first post in this topic.

I've given you the best answer I can, you can safely ignore it. In that game I failed to win in late 42 by about 10 VP, lost the initiative and was defending the eastern edge of Poland and Hungary in December 44 so got an easy win vs the HWM test.
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: loki100
...
well we've been around this many times - in the time frame of the game the Axis couldn't have repaired and connected the oilfields, by the time that is plausible the game is over (using the VP system)

Is this not still "conjecture"? Or do we have empirical evidence that what you wrote is the truth?

... But maybe my WITE2 plays different than other peoples WITE2. ..


No I suspect your game plays the same as mine in the basic mechanics

There have been several threads on this issue and I was reflecting the views of those who know far more than I ever will about the nature of the Soviet oil industry in the 1930/40s and how feasible an axis repair (incl setting in place transportation was). In summary doable, if Germany has won the war, not if it still needs to divert significant resources to full scale combat.

so in game, can you repair - yes, can you hook up the rail net - yes, will you get much out - no idea, will it make any real difference - well from the evidence of actually playing the game - no
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

Image

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser44 »

Another place to look is the manual & logistics report.

Manual states :
"Each fuel factory point will produce 250 tons of fuel per turn at the cost of 500 tons of oil"

(This is the base rate and is tweaked a bit from year to year)

Looking at the base production rate, I would expect 1 factory point to consume 500 tons of oil to produce 250 tons of fuel. Correct?

A basic ratio of 2-to-1 in terms of oil-to-fuel.

------

But after reviewing the logistics log, it seems to imply a different production ratio:
NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000
LOW OIL in Hemmingstedt for 7 x FUEL (85 %) Need: 3500, City: 3000, Pool 9500
NO OIL in Budapest for 7 x FUEL Need: 3500, City: 0, Pool 9500
NO OIL in Bratislava for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 6500
NO OIL in Brunsbuettel for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 6500
NO OIL in Krems for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 3500
NO OIL in Zeitz for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 3500
NO OIL in Almasfuzito for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 3500
LOW OIL in Haguenau for 5 x FUEL (40 %) Need: 2500, City: 1000, Pool 0
NO OIL in Oslebshausen for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Monheim for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Naples for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Bochum for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Duisburg for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Trieste for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Fiume for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Bucharest for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Floridsdorf for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0

It looks like each unit of Fuel is requiring 500 oil.

Or a A basic ratio of 500-to-1 in terms of oil-to-fuel.

-------

Something doesn't look right. Manual says one thing, yet logistics log implies another. hmmm.....



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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by 821Bobo »

Each 1 fuel factory is requiring 500 oil to produce 250 fuel. Thats also what shows your example.

Code: Select all

NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser44 »

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Each 1 fuel factory is requiring 500 oil to produce 250 fuel. Thats also what shows your example.

Code: Select all

NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000


I think what is confusing to me is the log's listing of "8 x FUEL Need: 4000".

I would expect to see "2000 x FUEL Need: 4000 [OIL]" or something of that nature.....

or even better....

"8 x Refineries in Pardubits need 4000 x Oil to Produce 2000 x Fuel"
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by panzer51 »

ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

Image

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log

Thanks, that's to me sounds like oil and fuel don't take any rail capacity, however, it does imply that a hex with oil must have a rail in it. Am I right?
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

its reporting the size of the factory, so its correct, as is the manual.

The logistics log is not the easiest document to generate or affect, it takes Pavel a lot of time to tweak it. So it is functional in layout and content, easier to key off factory size than worry about comparing that data to the variables around production etc.

Or in other words, in an ideal world where 2by3 had a mass of available coding time, its feasible the rough edges get removed. In this world, all that is distinctly down the list. But if you want it to report in a different way suggest opening a thread in the requests forum?
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

Image

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log

Thanks, that's to me sounds like oil and fuel don't take any rail capacity, however, it does imply that a hex with oil must have a rail in it. Am I right?

partly, I think at both ends of the chain must be a rail hex. So a rail in the producing hex and a rail in the receiving hex, if that is met then 50% is moved for free and the other 50% generates rail usage.

cities that are off the rail grid but need oil/fuel then get it via trucks
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by Stamb »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

One of the problems that WiTE2 had the last time I checked was that none of the captured Oil was getting transported to any of the refineries.

There are several that stand out from memory:

Drohobycz (6000 Oil)
Sonda (3000 Oil)
Narva (???? Oil)

Anyways, the last time I checked, this was still the case. Captured Oil stockpiles just sat there indefinitely.

Seems like this is fixed now.

I loaded a save when this city was not connected and compared what do i have now.


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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser44 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

its reporting the size of the factory, so its correct, as is the manual.

The logistics log is not the easiest document to generate or affect, it takes Pavel a lot of time to tweak it. So it is functional in layout and content, easier to key off factory size than worry about comparing that data to the variables around production etc.

Or in other words, in an ideal world where 2by3 had a mass of available coding time, its feasible the rough edges get removed. In this world, all that is distinctly down the list. But if you want it to report in a different way suggest opening a thread in the requests forum?

loki100, I really like you.

But as a coder, i know it would have only taken a 1-line code change to log more meaningfully descriptive information. And that is rather using "fprintf" or some "std::ostream" derivative.

In this case, the resource production data is important as that is the subject of concern here.

Additionally, WiTE2 uses a host of production variables that change over time. Right now, it is hard to know or determine if those are being applied correctly.

I would like to feel confident they are. But honestly, unless those values are logged, nobody knows for sure unless they have direct access to the code.

I think you would find the community a lot more helpful if there was a little more WiTE2 transparency.

Everyone wants a great game, after-all!



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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by DeletedUser44 »

[/quote]

Seems like this is fixed now.

I loaded a save when this city was not connected and compared what do i have now.

[/quote]

Agreed. I checked another series of save game files and believe it has been dealt with.

Sorry to waste your time, but appreciate the verification.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
...
In this case, the resource production data is important as that is the subject of concern here.

Additionally, WiTE2 uses a host of production variables that change over time. Right now, it is hard to know or determine if those are being applied correctly.

...

partial response as this question runs across this thread, this question was missed and its actually important:
ORIGINAL: Balou

Is fuel the only commodity we will never be short of ? What about tanks, aircraft, armaments, supplies etc ?

First, and we may disagree with this, you may disagree with this, so all I'm doing is setting out how (I think) it works.

So - none of the WiTx games (can't speak for WiTP) are industrial simulations. This came up starkest in WiTW where the VP system is used as a proxy for bombing damage against the actual German economy

Some production is limited, but mostly out of our control. The obvious bits here are the chassis production and conversion to named elements. There are caps due to factory size, possibly modified by damage and/or outright loss. B

Some production is generic (off arms pts etc) but the actual amount of element x produced is capped. So the Soviet shortage of heavier artillery till late 44 is hardwired, its near impossible for the axis player to take out enough Soviet production capacity to push production under these caps and of course the Soviets can't solve it by taking axis production.

In effect, for good or ill, both sides are straight-jacketed into something akin to their historical war time production systems.

Finally some production is generic and not capped. This is mostly the sort of stuff you find in an infantry element, where of course raw manpower is more important than producing say a light MG or rifle.

So - one side of the production system is important, but in reality you get what you are given (or to use my local vernacular 'you'll have had your supper')

Turn now to fuel/oil/supply etc. I think I've shown quite clearly that the axis player doesn't pay a price for not taking the Caucasus in the post earlier in this thread. Yes more or less factories might produce but I'm not sure if its of any importance. Again, I'm trying to capture how the system works, at the core the game system does not work at the level of shortages in production. You can spend an age in the details of the logistics report, its interesting but in the end (I think) its mostly irrelevant.

What the game system relies on is constraints in delivery - so the whole process of rail yards to push freight, rail lines to carry it, depots to store and process and units to actually employ it. Every step has constraints and, to a variable extent, you have tools to address those constraints.

A quick check supports this. There is a mass of freight in the NSS that you can't access because you can't bring to the front line. In the Axis AAR I mentioned, I spent the first year studying how much actually left the NSS each turn. I stopped recording this once the at start malus on transport lifted (and that my experience was that come 1942+ there was little change in the volumes, especially as I completed all the secondary rail lines):

Image

Now having done that, I'm pretty sure it tells us very little. What is sent from the NSS is a small fraction of what is in the NSS, or, at least in my view, the production system really is relatively unimportant.

apols, this is a long post but trying to reduce the number of hares skittering around as people look for information that is either not there or not important (in the game as designed).
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by Stamb »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
ORIGINAL: Stamb

Seems like this is fixed now.

I loaded a save when this city was not connected and compared what do i have now.

Agreed. I checked another series of save game files and believe it has been dealt with.

Sorry to waste your time, but appreciate the verification.
No problem. I wanted to check it by myself and just forgot about it :)

ORIGINAL: loki100
... this is a long post but trying to reduce the number of hares skittering around as people look for information that is either not there or not important (in the game as designed).

and this is why i started this topic. How can i know that running out of fuel is not important? I though they i will have to fight only with an infantry and maybe few motorized divisions.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Stamb
...
ORIGINAL: loki100
... this is a long post but trying to reduce the number of hares skittering around as people look for information that is either not there or not important (in the game as designed).

and this is why i started this topic. How can i know that running out of fuel is not important? I though they i will have to fight only with an infantry and maybe few motorized divisions.

which is why I gave you a graph of a completed axis GC, clearly indicating its no problem [;)] - as I have been known to argue elsewhere, there is in the end no substitute for actually playing the game, especially ones that are going badly so we get real hard evidence.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by Gunnulf »

I am with Loki on this for sure, the bottleneck is getting supplies and fuel to where it is needed more than anything else. The side game in WITE2 is the railtrack laying part of Railroad Tycoon to shift goods around rather than building a business empire per se. The game changer for me was realising from HYLA of the importance of level 2 railyards and connecting these dots and have extra paths for cargo to follow. The oil itself and many other aspects of production is a rabbit hole, that might be fun to explore but ultimately leads nowhere really. Just do the right thing with the supply chain and everything will fall into place.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by panzer51 »

On one hand the game limits how many mortars I can produce yet I have no cap on oil, it always flows. I guess losing Rumania is not a big deal too, or Caucuses. There is no real incentive to protect all synth fuel factories too, because you know stuff will magically appear out of thin air.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by Stamb »

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

I am with Loki on this for sure, the bottleneck is getting supplies and fuel to where it is needed more than anything else. The side game in WITE2 is the railtrack laying part of Railroad Tycoon to shift goods around rather than building a business empire per se. The game changer for me was realising from HYLA of the importance of level 2 railyards and connecting these dots and have extra paths for cargo to follow. The oil itself and many other aspects of production is a rabbit hole, that might be fun to explore but ultimately leads nowhere really. Just do the right thing with the supply chain and everything will fall into place.
I thought that if player can see that he is getting low on fuel that he has to reconsider what he is doing and where to go next. And as i wrote - i was not using luftwaffe, except for couple GS missions and recon. And i was not rushing with panzer/motorized divisions like there is no tomorrow. And in the spring '42 i should be out of fuel.
That is why i thought that there is a bug in production (and i am still not sure it if is working correctly from my screenshots from post 1) or too low fuel reserves at the very beginning of GC.
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RE: Axis fuel usage and production.

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

... yet I have no cap on oil, it always flows. I guess losing Rumania is not a big deal too, or Caucuses. There is no real incentive to protect all synth fuel factories too, because you know stuff will magically appear out of thin air.

well that is the game system, so yes, the test is can you get it to where you need it.

best illustrated from WiTW as the W Allies have a weapon system that is focussed on strategic warfare.

Most allied players in WiTW end up splitting their efforts across two broad goals.

You bomb HI/manpower/fuel/u-boat/v-weapons simply as you gain (or don't lose) VP that way

You then hit some specific things because that directly hits the German war effort. Usual choice is fighters, trucks or medium tanks. Any of these in short supply hurt and you can squeeze off supply of 1 substantively or all 3 minimally.

The point in WiTE2 of giving you a fairly fixed production is to avoid an awful lot of complications. I also think it reflects the pov that you are not Hitler or Stalin but head of OKH/Stavka. So to a large extent you get the resources allocated to you.
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