Doolittle Raid?

[RangerJoe]

Another thought, the raid was not a bad one led by a former Shell Oil Company executive!

Not all military operations are conducted with solely military aims, the political aims are very important.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Interestingly, Doolittle Raid had big strategic impact.

As Shattered Sword tells, it caused IJA to reverse it's refusal to participate into Midway operation. So, there were deep psychological impact, which caused strategic implications and let loose Yamamoto's very poorly planned operation MI (and even more flawed operation AL in Aleutians).

So the dumb Japanese did not figure out, that this B25 attack was a "one off shot" even without any climax? And that it could not be done often at all and even if the danger to the enemy carriers would be greater than the effect of some perhaps 20 B25 bombers?

If you "emergency load" a CV w/ 2E land bombers then how much space is left there for normal CV planes esp. anti ASW and CAP planes? Seems like such a CV is an easy picking...[;)] A normal loaded CV would be more dangerous as it can sink important shipping which a B25 could do not (perhaps only special trained units or ships sitting still)

The normal operational load on a Yorktown was about 70 aircraft, with the other airframes in the form of partly disassembled spares hanging from the ceiling, etc. With the deck park (about 25% of spot capacity) and the whole rear deck used to transport the B-25s, the carrier is not capable of normal flight ops.

After the B-25s launch the carrier can immediately resume normal flight ops, and with assembly of various spare parts has about 65-70 aircraft on hand.

[tolsdorff]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Surprised by these 2 photos, there were at least 3 fighters also on the flight deck. Man this looks totally cramped, what a feat that the B25 could take off!

....
Sorry the 2nd pic is so large... but look how near the planes are and the 2 fighters in the pic should they not be in the hangar or left at port [&:]
Are the 2 fighters in pic2 also F4 F3s? And note how the wing hangs over the deck. The last 2 B25 at the back seem also very in danger to fall from the deck[X(] Esp. with heavier sees I imagine.

It is even more crowded than it already seems : In the 2nd picture, there are what looks like 2 additional striped tail fins visible on the other side of the deck.

[Sardaukar]

Yep, 2 fighters there parked diagonally opposite to bombers.

Doolittle raid had very small tactical impact, one capital ship in shipyard was slightly damaged. But psychological and strategic impact was huge. For westerner it is difficult to understand Japanese psyche that time. But emperor was god to them and this raid put emperor into direct danger (even when chances of something happening to him was miniscule).

E.g. when Yamamoto heard about raid, he locked himself into his cabin in BB Yamamoto all day. It also convinced IJA to reverse their reluctance of Operation MI and AL.

Of course, if those carriers have been present in Coral Sea, Shokaku and Zuikaku might have had even more bad day in office. Or not...considering USN ineptitude that time to handle multi-carrier operations (one thing that IJN was way ahead that time, but USN was fast learner). This stems from IJN basic CV unit being carrier division (2 CVs) with clearly defined responsibilities for both CVs. In USN CVs still were considered independent entities. This shows also partially in USS Hornet's quite abysmal showing in Midway.

[LargeSlowTarget]

You have better eyes than I have, tolsdorff - looks like 2 Wildcats facing aft? But comparing different pictures, it appears that some respotting of planes has taken place during the operation:

[Ian R]

They were initially spotted all the way up deck past the island; the third photo above seems to show them parked diagonally in two rows, tails over the side, to make room for take off runs.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

They were initially spotted all the way up deck past the island; the third photo above seems to show them parked diagonally in two rows, tails over the side, to make room for take off runs.

Looks like the carrier is making 32 knots and has a good headwind to boot. That must have helped the B-25s a lot.

[RangerJoe]

My error, it was 4 cities besides Tokyo that were targeted and a CVL under conversion was damaged.

https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by- ... -raid.html

If I remember correctly, the weather was rough at the time of the launch which was one reason why the green (possibly in more ways than one!) crew from the Nashville had a hard time sinking a picket boat - of which 5 survivors were rescued. A lookout told the PO Captain that those were nice looking Japanese carriers and the PO said yes, they were pretty carriers but that they were not Japanese!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle ... i_campaign

[LargeSlowTarget]

To get back to the original question:

Creating a carrier-capable B-25 with the necessary air group, leader, pilots etc. in the editor is not difficult, I have done it in my Bottlenecks mod.

But it is not possible to recreate the Doolittle raid accurately, mainly because aircraft on attack missions will return to their starting point - only transfer missions can start at a base A and land at a base B - "base" being an airfield or a carrier. So starting from a carrier and trying to land at airbases in China while bombing something on the way is not possible in the game.

With some willing suspension of disbelief however it is possible to approximate, if you accept that the surving planes will return to the carrier. A "house rule" should limit the use to a single attack and the disbanding of the squadron afterwards.

Edit: This is not the strictly historical TF composition, but it is a game, not a reenactment.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Evidently the effect of the Doolittle raid in the game will also be ahistorical and depend on target selection, attack height and what potential victims the Japanese player has in the area. In nmy tests the worst I got was a lousy single hit on a repair yard for 7 B-25s lost, but other test runs bagged some valuable targets - see example below.

Of course there is the problem of hindsight. In a PBEM, knowledge of the mere possibility of a Doolittle raid in the game may incite the Japanese to keep some forces back in the HI to guard against such a possibility. In fact a Japanese player may even try to set a trap in order to destroy the US TF. But this will occupy assets (which could be used otherwise elsewhere) to guard against a potential attack option the Allied player may choose not to exercise after all.

Nevertheless IMO it remains an interesting option.

[RangerJoe]

If the unit were to disband with the aircraft being lost, then that would work but that would also put a time frame on such a raid that the Japanese player could/should be aware of. Thus, the surprise then is lost as well. But other players have raided past the Kuriles which would have a similar effect . . .

[Alpha77]

Ranger Joe reported correctly that is is said (in reports) that B25s also strafed .

I wonder with what, cause (Wiki)

Removal of the lower gun turret.
Installation of de-icers and anti-icers.
Mounting of steel blast plates on the fuselage around the upper turret.
Removal of the liaison radio set to save weight.
Installation of a 160-gallon collapsible neoprene auxiliary fuel tank, fixed to the top of the bomb bay, and installation of support mounts for additional fuel cells in the bomb bay, crawlway, and lower turret area, to increase fuel capacity from 646 to 1,141 U.S. gallons (538 to 950 imperial gallons, or 2,445 to 4,319 L).
Installation of mock gun barrels in the tail cone.
Replacement of the Norden bombsight with a makeshift aiming sight devised by pilot Capt. C. Ross Greening that was dubbed the "Mark Twain". The materials for this bombsight cost only 20 cents.[17]

And pics show they have no forward gun also...

Also this "Mark Twain" bombsight seems to exactly what Twain wrote ...[:D]

[RangerJoe]

The bombers' armament was reduced to increase range by decreasing weight. Each bomber launched with two .50-caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns in an upper turret and a .30-caliber (7.62 mm) machine gun in the nose. The aircraft were clustered closely and tied down on Hornet's flight deck in the order of launch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid

Japanese historians Takehiko Shibata and Katsuhiro Hara revealed that pilot Travis Hoover alone destroyed 52 homes and damaged 14. One bomb blew a woman from the second floor of her house to land unhurt in the street atop a mat. In the same neighborhood 10 civilians died, some burning to death in collapsing houses. Pilots Hoover, Robert Gray, David Jones, and Richard Joyce accounted for 75 of the 87 fatalities. Jones’s attack claimed the most lives—27.

Gray strafed what he thought was a factory, complete with a rooftop air defense surveillance tower. But it was Mizumoto Primary School, where students, like many across Japan, attended half-day classes on Saturdays. After school let out at 11 a.m, many students had stayed to help clean classrooms; one died in the strafing attack. . . .

https://www.historynet.com/aftermath-do ... amined.htm

[Alpha77]

Pics above do not show a forward MG... also not this one:

Click:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle ... Raider.jpg

[RangerJoe]

The nose gun was probably carried inside to protect it against the elements. That would be a little harder to do with the turret guns.