Leader Deaths

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Another game with 15 leaders killed Turn 1 Bread(RedJohn) vs Beethoven1

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454

[Zovs]

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.

[Stamb]

15% chance for non isolated leader to die is not working
Check previous page for my math. It is closer to 50%. If not more

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.

Both sides lost a lot of leaders in combat. It was part of the leading from the front mentality. The issue is that a lot of those commanders were lower level ones that WitE 2 does not simulate. So losing a regimental/battalion/brigade or division commander is not reflected in the game.

As such, seeing a lot of higher level leaders (in this case Corps and Army commanders) dying like flies is just too much and not based on historical records. Whatever the current KIA rates are, should be toned down.

[Zovs]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.

Both sides lost a lot of leaders in combat. It was part of the leading from the front mentality. The issue is that a lot of those commanders were lower level ones that WitE 2 does not simulate. So losing a regimental/battalion/brigade or division commander is not reflected in the game.

As such, seeing a lot of higher level leaders (in this case Corps and Army commanders) dying like flies is just too much and not based on historical records. Whatever the current KIA rates are, should be toned down.

Sounds reasonable. When I did the search what caught my eye was general officers and I must have translated that in my head to staff officers, lol.

[AlbertN]

I agree on the fact there should not be a HQ-Leader replacement during the same turn or maybe it can be another special rule for the first turns of the Grand Campaign. That the Soviets are slow at replacing their leaders?

[M60A3TTS]

A couple things to add to the conversation. First, no Soviet commanders at any level were being flown out of pockets at the start of the war. Second, what few leaders were during the war, they were army level at least. I have my doubts that anyone at the corps level would have been deemed necessary for rescue with the sole exception perhaps being Rokossovsky had he found himself in such a predicament. Leaders like Tolbukhin and Malinovsky were still an unknown quality at this stage. Second, when leaders flew out, or even in, such as Zhukov to Leningrad in 1941, and Paulus in 1942 at Stalingrad it was not a high risk operation relatively speaking. In fact I know of no leaders who died in transit by enemy aircraft fire. In Zhukov's memoirs he stated that while flying into Leningrad, they went in unescorted, were pursued by a couple German aircraft for a time but escaped unscathed. They had also radioed for assistance by their own fighters that were on the ground at the time, but none ever appeared and Zhukov never found out why. Third, Soviet leaders who died at the early stages of the war particularly if surrounded didn't have replacement leaders flown in. He would simply be replaced by the unit Chief of Staff or whoever was the highest ranking officer at the time.

Maybe if it could be coded, when a leader of a unit is killed, a temporary flag is set on the unit and the assigned replacement leader cannot be killed. Once the turn ends, the flag would be removed.

[Joel Billings]

I've done several tests displacing around 60 HQs each time that are not-isolated, and got results from a low of 4 to a high of 18 (more common result is around 8). In any case, I'm not getting 50% against in-supply HQs. I'm using a save someone sent me where I can easily displace a large number of Soviet HQs. We used that save (and another with isolated HQs) to test the fix and it seems to be working as it should from our tests (but with the big variation possible as shown in the tests I just did.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I've done several tests displacing around 60 HQs each time that are not-isolated, and got results from a low of 4 to a high of 18 (more common result is around 8). In any case, I'm not getting 50% against in-supply HQs. I'm using a save someone sent me where I can easily displace a large number of Soviet HQs. We used that save (and another with isolated HQs) to test the fix and it seems to be working as it should from our tests (but with the big variation possible as shown in the tests I just did.

The "nail" that seals this coffin shut.

[Nikel]

For reference, a list of senior soviet commanders who died along the war with several references, the last A. A. Stepanov, "the figure was 472 who died during the years of the Great Patriotic War, a general, an admiral and equal senior military leaders (including 268 who died at the front, 25 died in captivity, 56 were repressed, 123 died and died for non-combat reasons in the rear)." (Google translation).


472 deads/215 turns = 2,2 deads per turn.

https://tinyurl.com/2p8tcw57



Though in the references I do not see A Maslov, the author of the book that translated Glantz.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Hypothetical question here.

What happens if "ALL" the leaders in the game gets killed off that are available and a replacement is not available to fill the HQ. What happens then in the game?


***I know this will probably NEVER happen but what happens if it does? Is there a Generic leader that comes into being for the HQ? I know this is stupid but I am always curious ***

[King-Salomon]

don't forget, "killed" leaders in WitE2 are not only the killed ones but also the captured ones in RL.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Nikel

For reference, a list of senior soviet commanders who died along the war with several references, the last A. A. Stepanov, "the figure was 472 who died during the years of the Great Patriotic War, a general, an admiral and equal senior military leaders (including 268 who died at the front, 25 died in captivity, 56 were repressed, 123 died and died for non-combat reasons in the rear)." (Google translation).


472 deads/215 turns = 2,2 deads per turn.

https://tinyurl.com/2p8tcw57


Though in the references I do not see A Maslov, the author of the book that translated Glantz.

The leaders in the game represent only the Commander of the corp, army, army group, or front.

They do not represent the various senior officers attached to the HQ's depending on their level, such as Intelligence, 2nd IC, Artillery, and Air Liason officers to name some off the top of my head.

That figure of 472 will include more of these types of officers than the actual commanders.

[KenchiSulla]

Two things I think are important to consider before making any changes:

- What would happen in real life when a leader dies? He gets replaced, there is no end of list....
- How many leaders are rated highly in game (arguably the "end war" performance level) without actually being bloodied to earn the rating....

[Nikel]

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox



The leaders in the game represent only the Commander of the corp, army, army group, or front.

They do not represent the various senior officers attached to the HQ's depending on their level, such as Intelligence, 2nd IC, Artillery, and Air Liason officers to name some off the top of my head.

That figure of 472 will include more of these types of officers than the actual commanders.

Yes, in the list there are commanders that are not in the game.

IMHO too many are killed or removed right now.

I guess an average of 2 per turn along the war would be OK.

Of course the Soviets won the war, if the result would have been the contrary, more would have died one way or the other, so 2 is a good historical result if they end in Berlin.

But what if the Germans end in the Urals?

[Nikel]

Another list, army commanders, pity they are not numerated.

I count:

246 (normal, guards, shock and other armies).

19 (tank armies).

11 (air defence armies).

27 (air armies).

25 (sapper armies). "Sapper", but reading the biography of some of them, looks like "slaves" armies. I guess these are not in the game.



Anyway among them there were 30 deaths:

21 in battle.

2 "repressed".

2 suicide to avoid captivity.

2 in accidents (1 plane and 1 car).

1 disease.

1 missing.

1 died in captivity.


So 30 deaths in 328 (sappers ignored), 1:11 or 9%.

30 in 215 turns, 1 death every 7 turns.



I did not review all of them, but at least 2 (not the deaths, the list in general) are missing in the game:

Oka I. Gorodovikov, Colonel General since 1940 and commander of the 8th army in 1941.

Vasily G. Ryazanov, 1st assault aviation corps, and Lieutenant General of Aviation since March 17, 1943.


https://tinyurl.com/4cw8vy22

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1


Good thing that I am not using generals/HQs this game, or I would be pissed!

Post 52 of this thread. More dead leaders.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... ey=�

[Cavalry Corp]

I would like to see leaders wounded and captured - not just killed. And I think the kill rate probably is a bit too high.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

I would like to see leaders wounded and captured - not just killed. And I think the kill rate probably is a bit too high.

Seems the kill rate is a bit high, but it is what it is.

Need a Leader change and don't have or want to spend the AP? Well step right up we have a deal for you. Once the front line settles down just retreat a hex and put those HQ's on the front line to get that needed change for little or no cost. The rates are nice and you too can have that dream leader by sacrificing those old ones to the enemy . OR BETTER YET! Just relocate the HQ until that dream leader shows up from relocation deaths, no front line service needed by the HQ then.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Ya, Joel Billings said that the numbers are what he expects for leader kills. I am totally ok with that. But for killing of good leaders for the Soviets up front the first few turns, I call it "Bullshit" in my own opinion. You have to play to "save" good leaders with the Soviets now. It is a perfect strategy for Germany to pursue & I am sure it will be going forward. I know I will the next time I take up Germany. As for the Soviets you might as well "relocate" your HQ's out of the pocket & try to save them. BUT you have to relocate them during the Air phase, if you do it in the Ground phase they love to relocate back towards the enemy!!!!!! A few of mine did!

I'm still not convinced that the 15% rate is being applied to HQ's that displaced out of a pocket earlier in the turn. I have had too many occasions where the same HQ's keep losing leaders at a very high rate after they've been displaced from a pocket.

Does anyone have a save they are using to test this stuff?

I am ok with the killing of leaders but the rate is not 15%, it is higher. The problem is tied to the "pseudo random number" I bet. In theory if 100 HQ's are displaced then 15 of them should have a leader casualty. We aren't having that since K62 in our game did not displace 100 HQ's. He maybe displaced maybe up to 25ish and some a couple of times. The simple math dictates that that is not 15%. It seems on the first turn that when a German completes a pocket it treats it as surrounded and could be applying the 50% kill rate. Guess on my part but seems likely.

Brought this from another post in an AAR to here. The post came from this AAR
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=2&key=