Beta Patch VVS performance

[Rosencrantus]

Agreed, having GS being a strong force that can influence tough battles should really incentivize both sides to go crazy with the air war.

[jubjub]

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.

This I could stand by, but how could it be implemented? All the fighters that the SU gets already have historical performance numbers and I can't really figure out a way to help the VVS without skewing production or performance numbers that weren't there.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

But historically the LW lost dominance because most of the fighters were sent West, trained/expert pilot losses increased, there were fuel issues and because a lot of green pilots entered service. Not to mention that the Germans threw the LW away in multiple occasions in idiotic offensives that had 0 effect.

So assuming the German player avoids at least some of these issues, they should be expected to perform better than historically.

With that being said, I do find it odd that the Germans manage to get some really high kill counts in situations were they are heavily outnumbered and facing decent Soviet pilots. It is something that is being discussed in the dev forums.

[AlbertN]

I believe it's premature to say as the air war has been underplayed in general; so I feel it needs to be seen in situations where the LW is kind of forced to fly over and over and over if they can keep up that pace.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

ORIGINAL: jubjub

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.

This I could stand by, but how could it be implemented? All the fighters that the SU gets already have historical performance numbers and I can't really figure out a way to help the VVS without skewing production or performance numbers that weren't there.

There are issues with the current aircraft models and most of the discrepancies favor the Germans. One glaring inaccuracy is that the only metric that scales based off of altitude is speed. However, pretty much every statistic - climb, maneuverability etc. - should all vary based on altitude.

One problem aircraft is the LA-5 series. Their max speed of 559 km/hr in game comes at 3200 m, while IL-2 has the max speed at 603 km/hr at 6500 m. I think the reason why the developers were forced to make the max speed altitude so low is because they can't vary the climb and maneuverability metrics independent of speed.

Other values also just don't line up with anything I can find. Comparing the La-5 and BF 109-G2, the in-game zero-altitude speed is higher for the 109, and lower for the La-5 than other sources. This makes the 109G-2 faster than the La-5 on the deck, when the situation should be reversed.

Another comparison between the Yak-1 and the Bf 109E-7 shows that the Yak-1 was able to climb faster and turn faster (at all altitudes), while the 109 could dive faster. However, the maneuverability score favors the 109E-7 33 to 32. Clearly, the Yak-1 should have an advantage over the 109E-7 in some situations, but the WITE model denies this aircraft any advantage.

Another travesty is the Fw 190. This plane can't do anything besides boom and zoom - which it's really good at. It's terrible at turn fighting, but you would never know that based off of it's maneuverability score of 35 - higher than the 109F-4 and all of the Soviet fighters until the La-5FN comes onto the scene.

Basically, I would like the development team to take a second look at their numbers compared to other sources. I also think they should provide more granularity in the flight performance numbers and vary more performance metrics off of altitude. Additionally, find some way to give Soviet fighters the advantage in a turn fight that they deserve. This probably requires maneuverability to vary based on speed.

[ShaggyHiK]

The effectiveness of the German fighters should be reviewed, at this point in time they are conducting an effective defensive action. They sit on airfields and take off as support, knocking down everything that comes to hand. It is not right.

The success of German aviation did not lie in the performance characteristics of their equipment in the first place, and even more so not in passive tactics, but in an active strike strategy, organization of strikes, specialized ammunition for working on airfields - SD-2.5 cluster bombs

That is, for the effective destruction of Soviet aircraft, the German player must concentrate and continue to strike airfields after June 22.
First of all, it was fighters in the fighter-bomber version.

At the same time, in direct combat, losses should be an order of magnitude lower and not so fatal for the Soviet side.

[jubjub]

That is, for the effective destruction of Soviet aircraft, the German player must concentrate and continue to strike airfields after June 22.

+1

[ShaggyHiK]

Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front.

German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment.

The excessive fragility of aviation only contributes to this.

Only the Soviet side can afford to lose 90% of its aircraft in a sortie for a short period of time, but German strike aviation can also lose 120 aircraft out of 180 aircraft in a sortie. And this will end.

But even for Soviet aviation, such losses are fatal, most of the losses are not recoverable. And they go into the void, the Soviet bombers, for a departure from 200 aircraft on approach to the target, almost all go astray and, as a rule, do not cause any damage.

A reasonable way out of the situation when you cannot fly during the day is to fly at night, but the fix of night sorties has led to the fact that the losses that day and night have become similar. For 1 turn, the losses are approximately equal. If you fly during the day, then 600 aircraft are lost in air battles, if at night, then the same 600 aircraft, but already from OPS. The only difference is that at night, Soviet aircraft at least reach the target, unlike daytime sorties.

[Stamb]

Now GS plays a big role, so we will see more actions in the air. Overall I agree that VVS seems to underperform.

In my game we agreed not to use GA as it is not intercepted, or there are some strange rules in order to intercept it.

And airbase bombing was (it was patch 0.15 maybe it is different now) useless.


I lost 0 planes on a ground.

Remember any AAR where players use bombing for any other purpose then units? Except of loki and his railyard/depot bombing . Indeed, but there is a reason why developers added all of those options. And there is a reason why players do not use them, as probably they are useless by a ratio of air losses/supplies and end result

P.S Absence of spoiler on a forum is just killing me as I can not paste images that will not create huge vertical scroll on a page...

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front.

German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment.

The excessive fragility of aviation only contributes to this.

...

don't make such ready assumptions

1) I put a lot of effort into using the LW from the satrt to the end of the game, the only time I strip it down is for the winter of 41-42 when I reduce it to the fighters and a few tac bombers
2) I always use GS, incl in the Soviet turn and it pays off constantly

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front.

German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment.

Why do you always make assumptions that are wrong and usually not based on any kind of evidence?

1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses.

2) I use GS whenever possible and both me, loki100 and Rosencrantus have commented on this thread that GS is good at disrupting ground elements and also at hitting artillery. So on this thread only, you have 3 German players that use GS, contrary to what you are claiming. And in every forum asking about the usage of air force, its always GS that is recommended as a mechanic that players should use more.

[jubjub]

1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses.

This loss ratio is what I saw in my previous '41 campaigns by '42. However, my current campaigns just see the VVS blown out of the sky with no recourse.

[ShaggyHiK]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Why do you always make assumptions that are wrong and usually not based on any kind of evidence?

1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses.

2) I use GS whenever possible and both me, loki100 and Rosencrantus have commented on this thread that GS is good at disrupting ground elements and also at hitting artillery. So on this thread only, you have 3 German players that use GS, contrary to what you are claiming. And in every forum asking about the usage of air force, its always GS that is recommended as a mechanic that players should use more.

Of course, I can give screenshots from games where I see African troops in the east and do not see German Ju-87s.

But this will not prove anything, it will only show the difference in how you play and how others play.

The bottom line here is that you can consistently see that from the German side most of the aviation is displayed on the theater of operations, for the sake of additional divisions that will obviously bring more benefits than aviation.

I also don't think that aviation should be tied specifically to GS, aviation operations and gaining air supremacy are associated with GA, REC and SUP missions.

It is impossible to gain air superiority without reconnaissance of enemy airfields, without strikes against them and without fighter flights to control enemy airfields.
GS - should be effective when enemy aircraft in the area are either weak enough or completely absent.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The bottom line here is that you can consistently see that from the German side most of the aviation is displayed on the theater of operations, for the sake of additional divisions that will obviously bring more benefits than aviation.

Thats not how the TB requirement system works though.

Consistently? You are the first player that has mentioned this. I havent seen this in any AARs so far. Please point them out to me if there are so many of these cases.

[Stamb]

xhoel and ShaggyHiK

no point to discuss how it was before, before GS was pretty much useless

Now, with 0.19 patch, GS is showing much better results. Axis players will use bombers again, if they will be able to bring enough supplies for them.

[ShaggyHiK]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Thats not how the TB requirement system works though.

Consistently? You are the first player that has mentioned this. I havent seen this in any AARs so far. Please point them out to me if there are so many of these cases.

This is an example from a 4v4 game.
More specifically, Beethoven, my opponent on the other side of the front line, can tell here.

Also in other games for which the AAR is not conducted, I also see examples of the use of precisely the almost complete withdrawal of German aviation to the theater.

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

xhoel and ShaggyHiK

no point to discuss how it was before, before GS was pretty much useless

Now, with 0.19 patch, GS is showing much better results. Axis players will use bombers again, if they will be able to bring enough supplies for them.

Useless on the defensive, on older patches GS wasn't as good (i.e not many destroyed/damaged but still provided a lot of disruptions on the offensive.

[Stamb]

I saw multiple posts, and experienced that by myself that pretty often it was 1,2,3 elements disrupted. After it I told f**k it and send bombers to reserve/TBs.

[vvs007]

it seems that behind many details and tools of air warfare, the DEV have lost the most important thing - to show the huge impact of air superiority and how important it is to challenge it ... today the meta strategy for Soviet aviation is to put it in reserve until the 1944 ... leave a few fighters in depth, hoping to shoot down a few scouts, bombers .... if the mechanics are pushing for non-historical decisions, then such mechanics are broken ... in fact, the Soviets fought hard and won air superiority to 1944 .. first changing fighters 1 to 5, then to 3 , and then they became equal and better ... that's how the irl war was won.

the Soviet player is concentrating a huge number of troops to strike in the summer of 41 - this is not historical, because irl LW thwarted such strikes, the total air superiority prevented the Russians from moving, supplying, kill artillery,... LW recon helped for german divizions to prepare to repel such counterattacks...

it is strange for me that in simpler schemes in TOAW 4 and HOI4 it works, but not in WITE2