German Flak Regiments are busted

[DarkHorse2]

Well, I don't really see this getting out of control.

1. 50 APs is rather significant. (4 full turns of APs, correct?)

2. The production of 25 88's a turn is not going to sustain that many 88 losses.

At best, I see them as a quaint novelty in the game.

In the grand scheme of things, there is nothing that can be produced by German at a minuscule rate of 25 / turn that is going to have any significant impact against the Soviet 43-45 hordes.

[K62_]

The real problem here is with enhanced TB control. This feature did not get a lot of testing during game development and it has the potential to seriously unbalance the game. The Axis can pull out all kinds of useful assets like rail repair units, air transport groups, and now flak regiments, and replace them with either nothing at all or with units that are less useful in combat. The current game system won't care much if you replace Panzer divisions in North Africa with infantry or if you have obsolete plane models pitted against the Western Allies. I think a lot of these problems would be avoided by staying away from enhanced TB control altogether.

[DarkHorse2]

Guys,

You are so funny.

I really think you are getting hyper over nothing.

As far as RR, there are only two in Norway. (unless a bunch more come in later - and those will be too late to have any impact)

The ones in Norway are the ones you have no control over and are randomly deployed by the AI. (not a big deal)

Whatever is transferred East from those TBs have to be sustained by the German production system and supplied through the logistical infrastructure - which is set and not changing.

Even if you go to the extreme and xfer everything, it will hardly make a difference against the overwhelming Soviet production system and Soviet's ability to create pretty much whatever SU, division or Corps they need.

Germany cannot strip those TBs bare or leave them abandoned. It would be disastrous.

Again, this is not an aspect of the game that should cause much worry or concern. There are other areas more deserving of your attention.

For example - impromptu motorization of units. Now that should keep you up at nights....

[MechFO]

Lol about the bombers. I'm not going to talk about the air war.

And your point may be valid in the '41 campaign. However, StB has 88's in abundance. Not only is there the issue below - receiving hundreds of extra flak 88 guns as reinforcements, but all of the flak regiments in WE, flak towers, etc. start the game filled up in StB so they don't suck up all of the production (25/turn) like they do in the '41 campaign.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4987606

The 25 over a full game of 215 turns results in fewer guns than were produced in 1944 alone. Nearly 19'000 88's were produced by the end of 1944.

As for the flak regiments. Probably should be frozen, but I don't see how this is game breaking. Any retreat will lead to massive gun losses and Germans can't sustain their use.

[DarkHorse2]

As for the flak regiments. Probably should be frozen, but I don't see how this is game breaking. Any retreat will lead to massive gun losses and Germans can't sustain their use.

If I was the Soviets, I would be laughing about how those flak regiments are about to get ground up into useless husks for the remainder of the game.

[K62_]

As for the flak regiments. Probably should be frozen, but I don't see how this is game breaking. Any retreat will lead to massive gun losses and Germans can't sustain their use.

If I was the Soviets, I would be laughing about how those flak regiments are about to get ground up into useless husks for the remainder of the game.

You won't be laughing once you realize that:

• Germany starts the war with 588 medium flak guns on the Eastern Front, all in battalion sized formations.

• There are 4662 guns in medium flak regiments in Western Europe.

• Retreat attrition is quite low for experienced German formations.

[Jango32]

The real question that needs to be answered is why 88mm flak is so deadly against everything, with over 1000 total hits in a single combat engagement. Compare the number of hits per ground element in jubjub's screenshots. Flak hits occur more than twice as often for the ground element with the second highest number of hits.

[AlbertN]

The 88s were deadly and one of the key factors that gave the edge to Germans in their ingenuity in many situations.

For instance the Brits had matching caliber AA guns. Just for the Brits the AA is ... AA. Can't be used as AT.

It was an accurate, precise and long range gun, the 88. Which in fact later found function in AT, etc.

Does it hit a lot - that I do not know but they were widely used as Germans had to make do for their shortage of adequate 'real' AT guns, and their Panzers were unable to deal with other heavy tanks such as the Matilda since France '40.

[Jango32]

If you look at the screenshots you will notice that the mass of 88 guns was used as anti-infantry weapons, dwarfing the hits of other elements that participated in combat by at least twice.

[Killmaster851]

You are just jelous romani never done make somthing closw to the quality engineringa of da 88th

[jubjub]

I hope the game prevents those static Flak Rgts from being sent to support combat units in battle, they are supposed to protect and defend cities. Without organic transport a combat usage would only be permittable by paying with AP and an insane number of trucks for temporary motorization.

This is a huge issue if the static flak regiments are not meant to be attached to units, because the game most definitely allows you to.

[jubjub]

The real problem here is with enhanced TB control. This feature did not get a lot of testing during game development and it has the potential to seriously unbalance the game. The Axis can pull out all kinds of useful assets like rail repair units, air transport groups, and now flak regiments, and replace them with either nothing at all or with units that are less useful in combat. The current game system won't care much if you replace Panzer divisions in North Africa with infantry or if you have obsolete plane models pitted against the Western Allies. I think a lot of these problems would be avoided by staying away from enhanced TB control altogether.

Unfortunately, playing without enhanced TB causes numerous headaches, and I will never again play with it off. There probably just need to be house rules to restrict what you can bring to the map.

[Joel Billings]

This is a case where a house rule is very appropriate. Agreeing not to move AA regiments to the map from TBs is step one. Agreeing that they should only be in cities on the map or very high level HQs is another, although not necessarily required given the AP cost to pull them out of cities once there. That's up to the players. Currently the non-motorized flak regiments are probably OP in combat, as it's possible that Gary isn't accounting for their lack of mobility when determining whether they get into combat. There was a time when the AA guns were not participating enough in combat, and this was increased. When we look at combat again it will be worth a look to see if the mobility of the gun unit is being considered when determining the chance of firing (it may already be accounting for this, I don't know). My understanding of the combat is that these AA weapons are currently much less involved when in the attack than in the defense.

[DarkHorse2]

If you look at the screenshots you will notice that the mass of 88 guns was used as anti-infantry weapons, dwarfing the hits of other elements that participated in combat by at least twice.

Haven't checked this thread in a while as I had hoped you guys would settle down already.

At least part of the previous statement is false or based on a misunderstanding of the data presented in the screenshots.

In the 1st example provided, there are 115 of the 88's. Of course they are going to have more hits than their less numerous element types.

In this case, I believe the FPE & HPE (hits per equipment) columns are going to be more meaningful. The 88's had a rating of 10.87 in the screenshot. This is inline with several other equipment types and, in fact, notably lower than the 150mm sFH18 Howitzer.

In both examples, the 88's are used in a defensive role. They were historically effective in this role.

In the 1st screenshot, if you really look at it, the Stug IIIg performed better.

WiTE2_flak regiments2.jpg (401.84 KiB) Viewed 877 times

This is 1943? You can place a German Flak Regiment in every division on the Eastern Front and it will not noticeably change anything. Those Flak Regiments will quickly get burnt out and rendered a useless husk.

In this example, the Soviets launched an attack with 106,628 men against 2 Panzer Divisions & 1 Motorized Division and, lost 5,519 men, ( 5.2% ), resulting in the rout of the defenders. Don't think that Flak Regiment made any significant difference.

[Stamb]

it killed same amount of enemy infantry, DES column, as all other weapons combined...

[Stamb]

and even if there are less flak 88
they still are top killers in defense

like here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p4992953

[AlbertN]

Soviets 85's doing mayhem here.

Given I believe 88s are quite okay, - and certainly underproduced by a far shot - I am more worried of the massed Soviet AA at this stage.
Just in case before 88s are nerfed into oblivion and the game gains even more Soviet swing.

88s were - and should be - lethal in established positions.

The issue to me it's not '88' but how easily a SU is switched and shuffled around from this to that spot of the map. (Exactly as Soviet SR can teleport units left right and center).

[ElizabethWizard]

I'm kind of amused by how some members of this forum oscillate wildly between "soviets op game unplayable" to "axis op game unplayable."

It's interesting that the flak is doing so well relatively on the destroyed/damaged axis.

But is it overpowered? Idk. You threw 100k men at 50k and lost 5k and then they routed. Doesn't seem OP, seems like you traded lives for space.

Like I've only played in 1941 so far but these loss ratios... I would love them for my SU.