8.0 Corrections/Suggestions

[Twotribes]

Why do T-34's starting 43 have better fire control? As I understand it the Soviet Optics and such were horrible. Yet in the 43 model of the T-34 suddenly the tank has as good a fire control as German tanks.

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Why do T-34's starting 43 have better fire control? As I understand it the Soviet Optics and such were horrible. Yet in the 43 model of the T-34 suddenly the tank has as good a fire control as German tanks.

Check the T-34 thread on page 2...

It's not just FC and RgF, but totally unrealistic PEN-values as well...

[Commander Klank]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Why do T-34's starting 43 have better fire control? As I understand it the Soviet Optics and such were horrible. Yet in the 43 model of the T-34 suddenly the tank has as good a fire control as German tanks.

Becouse around 43 Soviet optics and guns did improve somewhat. this must be a reflection of that.

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Commander Klank

Becouse around 43 Soviet optics and guns did improve somewhat. this must be a reflection of that.

Ammo did improve slightly in '43, but not optics and guns. Since the 2-hatch cupola was a minor improvement, it just and just could justify some tweaking, but not such dramatic improvements as presented in the latest OOB.

[harlekwin]

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Commander Klank

Becouse around 43 Soviet optics and guns did improve somewhat. this must be a reflection of that.

Ammo did improve slightly in '43, but not optics and guns. Since the 2-hatch cupola was a minor improvement, it just and just could justify some tweaking, but not such dramatic improvements as presented in the latest OOB.

The alteration to values was done to get a desired result in playtesting IMHO and not based in any quanifiable result of alterations in design that can be based on citeable data.

I am betting the alterations were done to reflect a percieved improvement in the system's lethality which was in fact a human element not a technical one and should better be reflected in morale/exp ratings.

regards,
sven

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: harlekwin

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Commander Klank

Becouse around 43 Soviet optics and guns did improve somewhat. this must be a reflection of that.

Ammo did improve slightly in '43, but not optics and guns. Since the 2-hatch cupola was a minor improvement, it just and just could justify some tweaking, but not such dramatic improvements as presented in the latest OOB.

The alteration to values was done to get a desired result in playtesting IMHO and not based in any quanifiable result of alterations in design that can be based on citeable data.

If it was even based on playtesting (edit: the values have been explained to be 'experimental'), I guess the testing was done against Tiger I, since it also has fantasy values now, ie. improved over others.

ORIGINAL: harlekwin

I am betting the alterations were done to reflect a percieved improvement in the system's lethality which was in fact a human element not a technical one and should better be reflected in morale/exp ratings.

Well, the fact is that were no actual improvement in the system's lethality either...unless we ask Rotmistrov...[;)]

[Major Destruction]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen


There are contradicting sources as regards this question, but the earliest sources I have seen has the first of the rechambered guns shipped to the east in late january/early february with more to follow.

With the introduction of the Marder series of SPATGs the profiferation of this gun of course rose.

But let me reiterate. Why is these guns available upon capture for the germans, while captured german armor in the russian OOB is much later despite evidence to the contrary.

But perhaps you can explain to me why this gun, available from 7/41 has the better german ammuntion (AP Pen 133) available upon capture (The eqivalent soviet gun is AP Pen 84)

If the detailed data is not available, then units are introduced according to the best guess. As information is accumulated, sometimes after a search and sometimes by accident, but usually from someone on the Forum, the start or end date for a unit is 'corrected'.

Look at any unit and the chances are the start date is January. Go back to version 2 and you will find a higher proportion of start dates in January.

Typically a m36 gun would be available from January of 1936; a model 37 tank available from January 1937.

Whoever placed the pak36 gun in the OOB, obviously knew that it could not be available before June 1941. July 1941 is the next best guess.

We know the remanufactured gun was available in late December 1941 because Hitler ordered them to be mounted onto obsolete tank hulls to be used as Marders in late December 1941. Does this imply that the ATG's were used prior to this date? Does it imply that the guns were fast-tracked to Marder and later used as ATG's? What is the next best guess?

If the information on the forum that the ATG's were deployed in Jan/Feb 1942; that may be the best info we have to date. I would be happy to use a start date of Feb 1942 for this unit.

But Rene states that there is conflicting evidence.

So for now, we know that July 1941 is probably not correct and the next best guess is Feb 1942.

Good enough? Or will some Forum poster complain next year that the dolts who made this latest edit of the OOB got it all wrong again?

We do the best we can with the data we have. Pick any unit that starts in January of any year and you will probably find a new ax to grind.

Grind on[:D]

[harlekwin]

Ah I see so Sgt. Hans really DID go about with an optic and ammo....?

What exactly are captures modeling?


The example you gave is also part of the reason the Tiger Team vetted proposed changes and cited data used so the community coould rebutt or offer better data.

[Major Destruction]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

But perhaps you can explain to me why this gun, available from 7/41 has the better german ammuntion (AP Pen 133) available upon capture (The eqivalent soviet gun is AP Pen 84)

The OOB models the remanufactured gun that uses German ammunition. The Russian gun was not designed as an anti-tank gun and although used in that role by both Soviet and German forces is not modeled in the game as a captured ATG.

If you want to place captured Russian guns in your scenario it is simplest to buy them from the USSR purchase list then change the data manually to reflect your ideas about the effectiveness of the captured pieces, commander's name, ammo loadouts etc.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

From a ASL addict,

The date for the 76.2mm Pak36r's availability is July 1941 but is rated as quite rare until January 1942 when it becomes more available.
In the ASL game notes on this weapon it states that the German modified guns were not available until January 1942 and that the earlier dates reflect use without these modifications. In other words, Russian guns and Russian ammunition.

In German Artillery of World War Two by I. V. Hogg, he states that vast numbers of Soviet guns and ammunition was captured in the early weeks of the Russian Campaign, and prominent among the booty was the 76.2mm 1936. He says that these weapons were immediatly assimilated into German use under their Fremdengerat name FK 296(r). The Germans saw the potential of this weapon to be a potent AT weapon and thats when the changes were ordered. Now Hogg says that the only changes were reaming-out the chamber to fit a PAK 40 cartridge,moving the elevating handwheel to the left side to allow one man laying,(NO wise cracks please!!)and finnaly to add a muzzle brake. Then it was re-named 7.62cm PAK 36(r).
IMHO, the German modifier gun should become available in January 1942. The Russian gun as captured from July 1941.

Mounted on Marder, availability dates start at May 1942.

In the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two by Chamberlain, Doyle etc. Production date for the LaS 762 is April 1942.

Marder III Started production on the same date April 1942.

It would make sence that these vehicles got into the field quickly because the chassis used were either already built or on the production line.

Hope this helps to settle this little dispute.[;)][:)]

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay

From a ASL addict,

The date for the 76.2mm Pak36r's availability is July 1941 but is rated as quite rare until January 1942 when it becomes more available.
In the ASL game notes on this weapon it states that the German modified guns were not available until January 1942 and that the earlier dates reflect use without these modifications. In other words, Russian guns and Russian ammunition.

In German Artillery of World War Two by I. V. Hogg, he states that vast numbers of Soviet guns and ammunition was captured in the early weeks of the Russian Campaign, and prominent among the booty was the 76.2mm 1936. He says that these weapons were immediatly assimilated into German use under their Fremdengerat name FK 296(r). The Germans saw the potential of this weapon to be a potent AT weapon and thats when the changes were ordered. Now Hogg says that the only changes were reaming-out the chamber to fit a PAK 40 cartridge,moving the elevating handwheel to the left side to allow one man laying,(NO wise cracks please!!)and finnaly to add a muzzle brake. Then it was re-named 7.62cm PAK 36(r).
IMHO, the German modifier gun should become available in January 1942. The Russian gun as captured from July 1941.

Mounted on Marder, availability dates start at May 1942.

In the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two by Chamberlain, Doyle etc. Production date for the LaS 762 is April 1942.

Marder III Started production on the same date April 1942.

It would make sence that these vehicles got into the field quickly because the chassis used were either already built or on the production line.

Hope this helps to settle this little dispute.[;)][:)]

Thank you ever so much for making my point crystal clear.

[harlekwin]

Beer....

I knew what the dates SHOULD be what I was wondering was what the model was modeling so to speak.....

is it expedience or integrated use.

I'd say because of stats it is integrated and thus in too early.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Another matter for thought are the availability dates for the corresponding Russian guns.

In SPWAW the 76.2mm obr.36 is available for the entire war and then some, 1949? Same go's for the 76.2mm AA M.38.

In the case of the 76.2mm obr.36, its availablity fell off sharply by January 1942 and by December of that year had all but dissapeared from Russian weapons stocks. It is belived that this was because the factories that produced these guns were over run. Another possibility is that the Russians decided to concentrate production on the 76.2mm obr.39. Either way, by 1943 the only armies that were using this weapon were in the Axis camp.

With the 76.2mm AA m.38, the story is much the same. The reason for this may have been that they shared common parts(Barrels). This gun had the same performance as the obr.36 in ground use.

Use in Soviet service may have declined for another reason besides the ones mentioned above. It seems their use declined rapidly after the rifle division's heavy AA battery was officially deleted at the end of July 1941.

The Germans loved this gun too. Many of these were captured with enough ammunition to last till late 1944 in some home front flak units. It was also widely used on the Russian front.
Starting in 1943 as the ammunition supply began to dwindle, many of these guns were modified to use 88mm ammunition.

If I find other "stuff" I'll be glad to let you know. Just ask!!
[:)]

Forgot the main reason of my own post.!!

Availability of the 76.2mm obr.36 should stop as of December 1942 for Russian forces. This may upset some Tiger hunters but fact's are fact's.
Availability of the 76.2mm AA M.38 to Russian forces would also stop as of December 1942.

And this is only IMHO.[;)]

[TheOriginalOverlord]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Getting back to one of the OOBs I worked on, the USMC: there was an issue with the Raider/Para units getting M1 Garands before they were offically issued beginning in January 1943 . I went back and made some corrections.
Most of the 1942 units are now equipped with 03 Springfields or Johnson Rifles, but I left in three units which do indeed have Garands, starting in November 1942. The reason for this has been documented, and is part of Raider legend.
Mid October-November was when the Army arrived at Guadalcanal, and they had crates full of the new Garands. Well, in some cases, these weapons arrived before the troops did, and the Raiders took it upon themselves to "liberate" them. Others traded Japanese war souvenirs to the newcomers for their rifles.
Bill Wilder wrote a great article on the history of the Garand, and he mentions these incidents. So, in a few instances, I believed it would still be historically accurate to leave these few units in.
Is there any objection to that?

Well, it´s a good start, but we are still not closer to solving the basic issues, namely how high the proliferation of M1 rifles were in the Raider units.
One solution could be to change the encyclopedia text so that players could be made aware that the unit is unique.
Another to remove the Garand armed units from the USMC OOB and put them into one of the scenario designer OOBs, since they are a historic anomaly and therefore not widely available.
The third and last option would be to set their rarity rating as high in order that it be impossible to buy many of them (if playing with that option "ON").

But this still doesn´t address the basic question of units using no TO&E gear. How is this regulated by the OOB team? Is it only the USMC that get´s non TO&E gear? Furthermore this discussion leads us into the availability of captured gear, the question of which hasn´t been satisfactorily answered yet.

Here is some info on who had M1's......Raider weapons
the 2nd Raiders had them most likely around Fed of '42.

Some relevant passages..
"The raiders also had carte blanche to obtain any equipment they deemed necessary, whether or not it was standard issue anywhere else in the Corps"
also..
"Carlson also implemented an important change to the raider organization promulgated from Washington. Instead of a unitary eight-man squad, he created a 10-man unit composed of a squad leader and three fire teams of three men each. Each fire team boasted a Thompson submachine gun, a Browning automatic rifle (BAR), and one of the new Garand M-1 semiautomatic rifles. "

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Overlord

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Getting back to one of the OOBs I worked on, the USMC: there was an issue with the Raider/Para units getting M1 Garands before they were offically issued beginning in January 1943 . I went back and made some corrections.
Most of the 1942 units are now equipped with 03 Springfields or Johnson Rifles, but I left in three units which do indeed have Garands, starting in November 1942. The reason for this has been documented, and is part of Raider legend.
Mid October-November was when the Army arrived at Guadalcanal, and they had crates full of the new Garands. Well, in some cases, these weapons arrived before the troops did, and the Raiders took it upon themselves to "liberate" them. Others traded Japanese war souvenirs to the newcomers for their rifles.
Bill Wilder wrote a great article on the history of the Garand, and he mentions these incidents. So, in a few instances, I believed it would still be historically accurate to leave these few units in.
Is there any objection to that?

Well, it´s a good start, but we are still not closer to solving the basic issues, namely how high the proliferation of M1 rifles were in the Raider units.
One solution could be to change the encyclopedia text so that players could be made aware that the unit is unique.
Another to remove the Garand armed units from the USMC OOB and put them into one of the scenario designer OOBs, since they are a historic anomaly and therefore not widely available.
The third and last option would be to set their rarity rating as high in order that it be impossible to buy many of them (if playing with that option "ON").

But this still doesn´t address the basic question of units using no TO&E gear. How is this regulated by the OOB team? Is it only the USMC that get´s non TO&E gear? Furthermore this discussion leads us into the availability of captured gear, the question of which hasn´t been satisfactorily answered yet.

Here is some info on who had M1's......Raider weapons
the 2nd Raiders had them most likely around Fed of '42.

Some relevant passages..
"The raiders also had carte blanche to obtain any equipment they deemed necessary, whether or not it was standard issue anywhere else in the Corps"
also..
"Carlson also implemented an important change to the raider organization promulgated from Washington. Instead of a unitary eight-man squad, he created a 10-man unit composed of a squad leader and three fire teams of three men each. Each fire team boasted a Thompson submachine gun, a Browning automatic rifle (BAR), and one of the new Garand M-1 semiautomatic rifles. "

Afaik. Carlsons Raiders were not deployed on Guadalcanal, only in the central Pacific, right?

But still, this would entail two kinds of USMC Raider units, which the OOB afaik. used to contain (I don´t know if Erwin changed that.

The Carlson raider type unit could either be a squad of 10 men with the option of either having Thompsons or Garands in slot one, With a BAR*3 in Slot two, hand grenades in slot three, and Thompson/Garand in slot 4 (The opposite weapon of the one in slot 1)
Or it could consist of a 4 man and two three man fireteams, again with the weapons layout described above.

But again, The discussion at hand was primarily about the Raiders on Guadalcanal and their armament prior to 1943. But let´s get everything sorted out. It can only be for the better.

[KG Erwin]

OK, Overlord. Thanks for the info. [:)]So, I need to revert the 2nd "Carlson" Raider Bn Sqds to having the M1s, as they did originally, but keep the 1st "Edson" Raider Bn units as I changed them. Consider it done.

[harlekwin]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

OK, Overlord. Thanks for the info. [:)]So, I need to revert the 2nd "Carlson" Raider Bn Sqds to having the M1s, as they did originally, but keep the 1st "Edson" Raider Bn units as I changed them. Consider it done.

that's copacetic, a source reference.

Be nice if we could find TO&E on the sister unit

[KG Erwin]

Rune, the 2nd Raiders did indeed participate in the Guadalcanal campaign, but not until November-December 1942.
As far as the Raider units go, they had a notional TOE, but as has been noted, much leeway was given to the individual commanders in how these units were equipped & organized. One source lists a section of Boys ATRs as belonging to the Weapons Company, but I can't verify if they were actually used in every Raider operation. There IS a photo of a 3rd Raider Battalion unit crossing a river at Bougainville, and one of the Raiders is carrying a Boys.
Carlson's battalion was the most radically changed from the standard "D" series TOE of "regular" Marine units. Starting with 8.0, the Carlson Raiders are classed as light infantry, since Carlson's tactical methods were more akin to guerilla-type operations.
Edson's battalion was organized more like the standard Marine rifle units. What's interesting, though, is that Carlson's "fire-team" concept was offically adopted by the USMC for its rifle units in March 1944, with the issuance of the "F" series TOEs.
I apologize for going on at length about "infantry" in SPWaW [;)], but I am fascinated by the complexities of the ever-changing permutations of the USMC organization in WWII.
My main source has been Gordon Rottmann's "USMC WWII Order of Battle", but details on the Raiders come from a variety of sources.
Overlord brought up the offical USMC Raider website, http://www.usmarineraiders.org/ , but there's also http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/index.htm , and http://www.usmcraiders.com/ , a site run by Raider vet Dan Marsh.

[KG Erwin]

One more thing, and then I'll shut up: Bill Wilder has been on my case about writing some more articles for Wargamer. I started with an overview of Marine Tanks in WWII, but would anyone be interested in an article on the evolution of the USMC Rifle Squad/Platoon/Company from 1941-45? Would any of you read it? Just curious.
At the rate I'm going, you may end up with an article like that on this forum. [:D]

[Skotty702]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

Is the aircraft gun issue still an issue?
P-39: 10 37mm guns
P-38J: 15 20mm guns
P-51B: 10 .50cal guns
P-51D: 10 .50cal guns
F-80: 10 .50cal guns
P-51H: 10 .50cal guns
P-38F: 15 20mm guns
P-38L: 15 20mm guns
B-25H: TEN 75mm cannons!!!!!!!!!!!

This is just the US OOB. I know there are more OOB's that have funky
gun counts. Is this an error or part of the aircraft "improvement" idea.

Thanks
Scott

I think those are the rounds of ammo available pr. weapon guv´.

My error, I referenced the HE load amount, not the AP amount. AP counts as the number of equipped weapons given for an aircraft from what I understand. So here are a few of what I THINK to be errors:

US P-39: SIX 37mm cannons. Should be ONE
US B-25H: FOUR 75mm cannons. Should only be ONE
US P-38(all versions): FOUR 20mm cannons. Should only be ONE.

Any comments?