Airbase bombing and interception

[ITAKLinus]

Thanks for the precise reply, Joel. It's great to see such a commitment to make the game even better than it currently is.



Premise: I am fairly new to WITE-2 and I do play my current PBEM with the old 1.02.25, hence, my words carry little significance. Also, I am a keen lover of the real time air warfare of WITE-1 but it's fairly obvious that's not gonna come back.


My feeling is that an elegant way to solve various issues with air warfare is capping the amount of strikes (or planes striking) on a target? It has already been thought, so I wonder: what's preventing it from becoming a viable solution to cut many extreme situations at the root? It would also help to revert the ground attack mission to the initial one, maybe.
Introducing some form of ''coordination'' value(potentially tied to leaders' air skill?), also, might be an interesting option: this in turn can lead either to 'penny packets' strikes which get butchered by fighters or better organised defense on the other. I have literally no idea of the air warfare in the eastern front, but I do wonder if imagining some form of CAP after the first strike kicks in would be reasonable.



An issue I do see constantly is the incredibly high casualty rate for pilots. Over the course of many years, I have killed generations of Japanese and Allied pilots in the Pacific , but it always seemed 'right'. In WITE-2 I do understand the level of detail is much much reduced, but, nevertheless, it looks like destroyed plane = pilot killed.

In a GC, at T029 I've lost 2.379 planes due to A2A and FlaK, with 2.304 pilots killed. I mean, that's quite tough, isn't it? Perhaps it's intended to be so severe, but it just does not sound 'right' to me. The fact that I do see many pilots killed on the ground, also, is maybe questionable: ok that bombs can fall on shelters and pilots reaching planes strafed, but still...

Frankly, I'd like to have a rather more nuanced system when it comes to pilot losses.

[malyhin1517]

You are new to this game and believe me, it used to be even worse! Now the system looks more realistic, you just need to use aircraft less heavily.

[Rock64]

I really liked interdiction in WitE 1 where if the enemy had high enough recon on you and passed a check they could interdict that unit while it was on the move thus cutting down its MPs. Its a lot more dynamic and realistic as you dont really know which unit will get hit and at which point. Unlike the current system where you can clearly see where the interdiction has taken place. Just my 2 cents though.

+1000

+1001

+1002

[Rock64]

Sigh:

Sorry, but I don't understand why there is any reason to "sigh" here. We are just trying to have a friendly and hopefully productive and fact-based discussion about some aspects of game mechanics. If you are right, then you will have been right on the internet about a computer game. If I am right, then I will have been right on the internet about a computer game. It's pretty low stakes.

Good one!

[Rock64]

As for the real-time interdiction system in WitE1, it’s not coming back. We experimented with it in the early days of WitE2 and we rejected it. There were too many issues that came up with it so we went a different way. At this point, there’s no going back on that. That said, we are committed to continuing to improve the game as we can and as we get feedback and saves that help us do that. We appreciate players providing feedback, and specific tests and saves, that let us move forward. Let’s all focus on that and move forward together. Thanks.

That's a shame. I played WITE a good bit and the removal of interdiction feels like a big piece of the game was removed.
Maybe a DLC similar to what AE did with WITP.

[Joel Billings]

In a GC, at T029 I've lost 2.379 planes due to A2A and FlaK, with 2.304 pilots killed. I mean, that's quite tough, isn't it? Perhaps it's intended to be so severe, but it just does not sound 'right' to me. The fact that I do see many pilots killed on the ground, also, is maybe questionable: ok that bombs can fall on shelters and pilots reaching planes strafed, but still...

Many versions ago we made adjustments to pilot kills (I think that was before 1.02.25). In my experience only about 1/3 of German aircraft losses involve a pilot loss (can be less for the Soviets early on). This includes op losses which can cause the loss of a pilot. You can even lose pilots when a/c are lost on the ground, although it's a lower loss rate.

[ShaggyHiK]

At the moment I would focus on getting the German Ju-88s. They should be more effective against the ground forces of the USSR. Just like the Pe-2. Soviet similar aircraft of similar design and mission.

The famous photo of the destroyed Ferdinand by a bomb dropped from a Pe-2 from a dive suggests that aircraft of these types could effectively hit targets.

If this is done, then it will also be necessary to slightly weaken the capabilities of the IL-2 and Su-2, because now they are too good, or through the prism of losses, increasing their losses without affecting efficiency. Or through the possibility of hitting targets by reducing their accuracy and damaging effect. Soviet general purpose bombs weighing 50-100kg were quite ineffective and the pilots complained about this. A close gap could be just like a bang without hitting manpower, if a direct hit was not achieved.

I would also introduce a raid rule, something like an interdict.

Let's imagine a Soviet assault division of 5 regiments working for the division, 140 sorties per aviation week.

Each sortie imposes a penalty on the hex and adjacent hexes and increases the chance of regiments being intercepted by German aircraft. Also, on the next turn, part of the penalty is saved, which also increases the accuracy potential of anti-aircraft guns, and retaining part of the fighter interception penalty on the next turn in the same hexes.

Moreover, all these ideas will make it possible to more flexibly set up an air war, and counteract abuses.

At the same time, in the case of raids on airfields, if the first flight ended with the defeat of the aviation group at the airfield, then further fines, even if they are imposed, may no longer affect because the fighters will be destroyed on the ground before they receive "bonuses" for interception. Which in general looks like a realistic development of the situation.

[Denniss]

It's always possibe an airbase attack achieves surprise so hitting some aircraft trying to take-off or otherwise moving around on their own power but the ~16% pilot loss rate seems a bit high.

[Mehring]

As for the real-time interdiction system in WitE1, it’s not coming back. We experimented with it in the early days of WitE2 and we rejected it. There were too many issues that came up with it so we went a different way. At this point, there’s no going back on that. That said, we are committed to continuing to improve the game as we can and as we get feedback and saves that help us do that. We appreciate players providing feedback, and specific tests and saves, that let us move forward. Let’s all focus on that and move forward together. Thanks.

That's a shame. I played WITE a good bit and the removal of interdiction feels like a big piece of the game was removed.
Maybe a DLC similar to what AE did with WITP.

I also think it's a loss to the system, there was nothing worse than calculating the odds for an attack, moving up the units and one or more not arriving with enough MP to attack, just like real life. I can't recall whether there was any depiction of any air activity on map but the ideal would seem to show where enemy air is active, depict the estimated intensity and make the effects random. Miss it.

[ShaggyHiK]

I also think it's a loss to the system, there was nothing worse than calculating the odds for an attack, moving up the units and one or more not arriving with enough MP to attack, just like real life. I can't recall whether there was any depiction of any air activity on map but the ideal would seem to show where enemy air is active, depict the estimated intensity and make the effects random. Miss it.

If you say that the air war was "random", you fundamentally do not understand the processes of the air war.

[ShaggyHiK]

It's always possibe an airbase attack achieves surprise so hitting some aircraft trying to take-off or otherwise moving around on their own power but the ~16% pilot loss rate seems a bit high.

And although in the game mechanics, pilots can be considered as sitting in the cockpits of aircraft, in real life, a raid on an airfield has other purposes besides aircraft on the ground. Such as auxiliary equipment, radio towers, air defense suppression, strikes on hangars and buildings with personnel. Any places where fuel and ammunition are stored.

And although the game certainly does not simulate this process, there may be losses among the pilots without the loss of the aircraft.

So some averaging is quite acceptable.

[xhoel]

If you say that the air war was "random", you fundamentally do not understand the processes of the air war.

You CLEARLY did not understand Mehrings comment so let me explain it for you: He said that which unit would get hit by interdiction was random, which is true. He said nothing about the air war in general.

As for the real-time interdiction system in WitE1, it’s not coming back. We experimented with it in the early days of WitE2 and we rejected it. There were too many issues that came up with it so we went a different way. At this point, there’s no going back on that.

Thanks for the answer but thats a shame. Seems like Im not the only one who misses that system.

[Zovs]

Personally I hated the old air war system, I am now a big time fan of the WITW dual air war system and how it’s applied to WITE2. It’s another sub game to learn and master. Granted it works a bit better in the West and clearly shows how the Western Allies air power is better than the Axis and Soviets air, especially the US aircraft.

[malyhin1517]

Personally I hated the old air war system, I am now a big time fan of the WITW dual air war system and how it’s applied to WITE2. It’s another sub game to learn and master. Granted it works a bit better in the West and clearly shows how the Western Allies air power is better than the Axis and Soviets air, especially the US aircraft.

I am not satisfied that now aviation does not really interfere with the movement of enemy units. It would be possible to at least add air raids on moving units, which would take place on the basis of an interdict with real losses of troops and the loss of their combat capability. Right now, the interdict has no real meaning on the map.

[redrum68]

My feeling is that an elegant way to solve various issues with air warfare is capping the amount of strikes (or planes striking) on a target? It has already been thought, so I wonder: what's preventing it from becoming a viable solution to cut many extreme situations at the root?

This was my suggestion as well. Having 50 bombing missions (with 1000s of total planes) target the same airbase within a week as the Soviets in 1941 is not realistic. Having a cap on number of GA per hex in a turn or have each one become less effective is IMO the best solution to some of these extreme situations without massive changes. I believe back in the wite1 there was a cap on the number of airbase bombing missions per hex.

[malyhin1517]

I believe back in the wite1 there was a cap on the number of airbase bombing missions per hex.

This limitation appeared later, when WITE1 began to develop separately.

[Rock64]

Personally I hated the old air war system, I am now a big time fan of the WITW dual air war system and how it’s applied to WITE2. It’s another sub game to learn and master. Granted it works a bit better in the West and clearly shows how the Western Allies air power is better than the Axis and Soviets air, especially the US aircraft.

I agree the WITW dual air system has some big improvements over the original WITE air system.
But why is ground support real time and not in the air phase? Because it doesn't really make sense to put it in the air phase when it has to interact directly with ground units during ground combat.
Another oddity is all recon is a week old for air missions. In WITW, it wasn't such a big deal because factories don't move.

[Denniss]

I believe back in the wite1 there was a cap on the number of airbase bombing missions per hex.

This limitation appeared later, when WITE1 began to develop separately.

Because some players misused the system by running small scale attacks en mass so enemy airplanes use up ammo, fuel and milage and once they ran out the big raids came in unopposed. Or repeated small air attacks on ground units having them use thair ammo up making them easy target for land unit attacks.

[redrum68]

I believe back in the wite1 there was a cap on the number of airbase bombing missions per hex.

This limitation appeared later, when WITE1 began to develop separately.

Because some players misused the system by running small scale attacks en mass so enemy airplanes use up ammo, fuel and milage and once they ran out the big raids came in unopposed. Or repeated small air attacks on ground units having them use thair ammo up making them easy target for land unit attacks.

I don't think the bombing per hex limit really impacted the many small missions to tire out enemy airplanes as you could just hit lots of nearby hexes. But yeah there were some issues with many missions in the same hex causing lots of AA ammo usage. But it honestly was a decent solution to limit crazy amounts of air missions hitting the same hex which isn't realistic.

[Hardradi]

In addition, my understanding is that if you set up an AD to bomb airbases, the computer will launch raids to empty airbases within the target box. Someone mentioned recon by bombing. Does this mean that as raids go out and bomb airbases, info about which enemy airbases have aircraft and which don’t is unveiled, and future missions will not go to those without aircraft? I don’t know the answer to this, so I’m asking in order to find out if this is an issue that should be tweaked.

This isnt exactly the same situation but in a recent turn 1 as Axis, I air base reconed a large box on Day 2 in the Lvov region and also had a box the same size for air base bombing on day 2. The air base bombing occured after the recon on Day 2 and I noticed that it bombed an empty air base that never had any Soviet aircraft on it. It is possible that there were no Soviet planes left in the box.

Also air base recon is very easy to do. (EDIT: Also, it lasts multiple turns). Draw a box and the recon planes only fly to the air bases with enemy planes on them, it totally ignores the empty enemy air bases in the box.

I know all three sizes of air base have the same flak levels. Is there any in game protection for being on a level 3 air base as opposed to a level 1 air base?