[1.12p] LogiSystem ignores City pull points

[BlueTemplar]

(started v1.12n)

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For some reason (another kind of recalculation ?), this issue is fixed if the road between Auzits (22,8) and (23,7) is destroyed :

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Note how the city and unit pull points have changed (and moved around). This doesn't happen from the usual recalculation by changing things in the traffic signs popup or disabling/enabling LogiPreview mode.
(And things don't fix themselves by just ending the turn.)

[BlueTemplar]

Save :

game_03_r044_05-city_pull_bug.zip

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Might this have been caused by these changes ?

Changelist for v1.12c
[...]
-Logistical System Pull Point algorithm has been revised to better function when there are less Logistical Points available than that are needed by Cities,Assets,Units. (it might also have become a tad slower- lets keep an eye on this and any other possible complications!) It would be nice if anybody could try a new game with special attention to if the pull points of the logistics system are working well *

(Revised how ?)

Shadow Empire (core) changelist for v1.12n:
-Slight nudge to Logistical Pull System in some odd cases where traffic signs were wrongly preventing Pull Points being placed for Units (Battlemode Ben)
[...]

Possibly related :
Rework Logistic system from 'Push' to 'Pull'
Pull logistics issue update from Vic
[1.11.12c] SHQ fails to supply troops without a logistic assets, does not attract LP

[Vic]

Looked at your savefile. If you remove the traffic lights for the Pull Points on 23,7 (and ideally also on the city further downroad) all seems to work fine.

The changes related to BATTLEMODEs post where for Unit Pull Points being allowed to go over both non-road & road in some circumstances.

best wishes,
Vic

[BlueTemplar]

Thanks, I hadn't thought of it for some reason :

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However, that's only a workaround, and one that you can see working poorly in this situation : the metal mine now won't get enough LP next turn !
So now it's the metal mine pull points immediately South that are ignored for some reason ??

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This time that's something that I can fix by adding extra custom pull points (which didn't work for the city for some reason), but the bug still seems to be there ?
(Also, this created a branching, which I generally prefer to avoid, since they eventually come with penalties.
Not to mention that in other situations you might want to avoid the shortest path for other reasons, like enemy threatening to take the hex...)

[BlueTemplar]

Or another example (now with v1.12p2) : after moving the SHQ from the North city to the South city, the next turn :
(the only Truck Station is still in the North city)

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Note how there's a bunch of missing unit pull points on the northwestern branch ? (Also near the North city, though that isn't particularly clear on the screenshot.) (I used a 80% traffic sign to only have some of the points go to the NW branch.)
Preview for next turn, with that traffic sign removed, and network simplified North :

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Pull points are being ignored downstream of the branching :

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(And even when I try to add 50k custom pull points to the (22,6) or (23,7) immediately downstream, they are ignored !)

Now, I wouldn't exactly expect for the logistic network to automatically work *well* in this situation, but I'd at least expect for it to continue properly placing unit pull points (which would still make my own job easier to guesstimate traffic sign size like I did the previous turn) and respect all pull points !

Save :

game_03_r050-BUG-pull_points_ignored_again.zip

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[Vic]

Made some changes (nxt subversion) for the Asset Pull to work also with your case where there is a Zone without logistical Asset and the other Zone pulling things weirdly.

The second issue with Unit Pull Points is caused by this special case where you SHQ is in a Hex without logistical Asset. I am working on this one. In fact quite a lot of the Unit Pull Points ended up by detour on your southern road branch. Which is not the optimal way to pull as the other road is obviously closer.

Expect this setup to work again the next subversion.

Appreciate the critical feedback here a lot

[Vic]

It really has to be noted though that this is a suboptimal setup as the SHQ should ideally be placed in the center of your logistical network so the logistical points originating or flowing through it can be pulled towards its units/zones.
What you are trying to do here is mostly beyond the current pull system design.

[BlueTemplar]

Yup, as I mentioned :

[...]
Now, I wouldn't exactly expect for the logistic network to automatically work *well* in this situation, but I'd at least expect for it to continue properly placing unit pull points (which would still make my own job easier to guesstimate traffic sign size like I did the previous turn) and respect all pull points !

Thanks a lot !

Made some changes (nxt subversion) for the Asset Pull to work also with your case where there is a Zone without logistical Asset and the other Zone pulling things weirdly.

Speaking of which, I was wondering : what the hell could possibly have caused this major capital to not have a transport hub ?!
Already turn 5 I see him to not have one... and yet he should have 20.7k populace, only 0.6+0.6+10.5 = 11.7k of which is employed. (A transport hub 1 is 2.1k.)
I would guess that he forgot that he could give emergency food (the dome farm producing 200 private food and 25 state food before modifiers), or his military was too big, and his private economy decided to build a second dome-farm 1 (which I later captured and disbanded), which then resulted in the requirement of 22.2k populace, and the transport hub was first in line to get shut down ?

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Which, yeah, makes some sense, but means that the AI is kind of stuck there until (if!) it manages to attract enough populace... and IIRC even though private rural assets still produce even without logipoints, they do so very ineffectively, resulting in a death spiral here ?
As a player, I would probably have tried to nationalize (or close/disband and rebuild) the second dome-farm, also my private economy built an ice mine, while his never did, neither did he - and then I would have played around with the production speeds of these, which I am not sure the AI knows how to do...
Save :

game_03_r005_end.zip

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Also, before doing tweaks on this,
EDIT : welp, this ended up as quite the novel, it deserves its own thread I guess ! => For a more bottom-up "Dwarf Forteress-y" Major generation
it would be nice if private agri-domes and (xeno)farms also used water (with an allow emergency water option, possibly merged with the food one)
And instead of a water resource (and metal resources ? and ruins ?) seemingly just being added after the fact next to the major cities, do it (even MORE) Dwarf Fortress-like and have the major cities only spawn in particularly good conditions :
- where there is a large source of metal : lots of ruins and/or a metal resource
- where there is a large source of oil : lots of ruins and/or an oil resource
- where there is a large source of water : water body and/or a river and/or ice at least some time of the year and/or rain at least some time of the year and/or enough nearby hills for wind traps in good enough conditions (have the player start with at least one private wind trap), and/or good enough xenofarming conditions with subzero xenofood that doesn't need water (do we have a private xenofarm ?)
- where there is potential for early-mid game power generation : ((either lots of ruins for rare metals and/or a rare metal resource) AND sufficient illumination for decent solar energy generation)) OR really abundant oil (so even MORE ruins and/or oil resources)
- where there is not too much radioactivity on the previously considered hexes : in this game I am a bit stumped how the 3rd major started with *even* higher radioactivity levels to the point where he has radioactivity issues in his capital itself right off the bat, yet still *somehow* started with the largest population ?! (I guess we could also have the regimes sometimes start with (sometimes private ?) anti-radiation infrastructure on all the abovementioned spots, including abandoned ones outside of the starting 6 hexes ?)
- minors would be minors because they ended up in worse spots, with the kind of spots they ended up in determining the kind of minor they are (for instance : the less water, the less likely that the minor has a city, and that there is even a minor there).

Then difficulty levels would first tweak the tolerance of the major human players and the major AIs can end up as, and only later (at the two extreme difficulty levels) artificially increase/decrease the resource amounts AFTER planet generation is done.
History Class should probably also have 4 extra options allowing you to separately take tolerance and resource amounts up/down a notch (with opposite effects on major AIs ?), and maybe also a 5th one "random start" which would only care about the average across these checks for human players, and not discard a start with, for instance, bad water, if the metal is amazing, and maybe also a 6th one "unfairly random start" which wouldn't care about these checks at all for human players.

P.S.: This might require the map generator to sometimes throw up the error : "Failed to pass the following checks : [checklist], do you want to proceed or reroll ?"
Might help dealing with issues like this one too ?
[v1.12g] Game generation bug: setting "Number of initial Zones" is ignored

The second issue with Unit Pull Points is caused by this special case where you SHQ is in a Hex without logistical Asset. I am working on this one. In fact quite a lot of the Unit Pull Points ended up by detour on your southern road branch. Which is not the optimal way to pull as the other road is obviously closer.

Oh wait, this seems related to this one ?
[1.11.12c] SHQ fails to supply troops without a logistic assets, does not attract LP

operational logistics are well in range of SHQ, but units do not receive anything because of "SHQ logistical limit" and other zone logistics cannot enter the tile


Save: pbem8.zip

It is bottlenecks mode, and there is no black line because no logistics even attempt to go towards SHQ tile for some reason. Otherwise logistics would work normally.

Why would logistics need to go towards your SHQ city? Is there no Logistic Point producing asset in your SHQ's city hex?

Yes, it got destroyed and that caused the manifestation of the bug.

Damn, in both of these cases, I suspected these exact issues, but somehow forgot about my suspicions while making the bug reports, sorry...

[Don_Kiyote]

...the SHQ should ideally be placed in the center of your logistical network so the logistical points originating or flowing through it can be pulled towards its units/zones.

This^ became pretty important in my last game.

The whole Logistics algorithm really needed a single hub-and-spoke design to work at its full long-range potential. Fancy inter-city planning, with sub-networks and linkages and exchanges in asymmetrical regional hierarchies...this stuff was causing problems as we got bigger and much farther apart. The Logistics algorithm wasn't doing 'rhizomes' very well.

So I re-built large parts of the network to really use each facet or edge of the SHQ/Capital hex for a single spoke going in a single direction, with a well defined either 'in' or 'out' function. Distant sub-networks - little areas with road service for one reason or another- were then connected only to those spokes, and not to each other.

So, as much as possible, each provincial city hex was either only sending directly to the capital and receiving from more distant sites, or receiving directly from the capital and sending only in the opposite direction.

Anyways, it seemed to work. The algorithm seemed to like it.

Not sure how relevant that is to the issue this thread began with. Better understanding what the algorithm wants might help though.