Help with SAM OODA Limitations Defending Ships

[DWReese]

I'd like to know a tactic whereby I can keep some really powerful ships from being killed.

Specifically, I'm talking about a 3-group of Russian ships in the Trident Boreal scenario which I was use for this example. The group has a Udaloy, a Slava, and a Steregushchiy. The are armed withSAN-4, SAN-9, SAN-6 and SAN-21d. Three of the 4 listed SAMs can shoot at Surface Skimmers.

The incoming missiles have been fired from some F/A-18s and they are AGM-158c, or LRASMs. Once fired they come it at just 30 feet above the surface.

So far, so good, but here's the problem: Despite having several Russian AEW planes in the area, they never pick up the incoming missiles. They were located about 50 miles BEHIND the SAG. The first time that the missiles are observed is when they are just 7 miles away. The missiles are only flying at 600 kts, so there should be time.

The Russian ships are veterans. According to the OODA limitations, the Udaloy and Slava, can fire after 45 seconds. That's a long time. The Steregushchiy, however, can fire in just 15 seconds, but it won't fire because it constantly mentions CEC limitations. I get the message that it has to have another unit, or itself, provide for CEC guidance. That never happens, or when it does, the incoming missiles are too close to fire.

The result: All three ships are sunk by just two missiles each, and they never get off a SAM shot on defense.

So, the A-50, and A-100 apparently did nothing. Some Su-57s were around on CAP, but by the time that they saw the missiles it was too late.

So, what can provide the CEC guidance to help the SAN-21d so that it can fire? What needs to be added? Would flying a helo out in front help with the CEC thing? Or, is the LRASM just too good?

Thoughts?

[DWReese]

I narrowed this down to the fact that the LRASM has an on-board jammer. That is apparently really strong because they have extreme difficulty against those jammers. I replaced the LRASMs with Harpoon (no jammers), and the results were quite different.

I don't know if the jammers should be this strong, but I have no way of actually knowing.

[Eboreg]

My best advice would be to put the Su-57s directly overhead the ships. And yes, the LRASM is just that good. There's a reason the US doesn't have free healthcare.

[DWReese]

Hahaha

Yes, that's the reason.

The Su-57s were all set by the designer at 35k feet, so that might be an issue as well.

But, it's the jammer. I've never seen one on a missile this strong.

[Nikel]

We commented this problem when the scenario was being tested.

I would have liked that the devs looked at it, but finally we did not post a save in the tech support forum.

The Felons may indeed detect the LRASMs and even destroy them, as Eboreg commented, but they are not enough of them or not well positioned in the scenario.

Just tried in a save I still have, and a screen of 12 Felons avoided the destruction of the Nakhimov naval group, vs a barrage of LRASMs launched from the 2 B-1B bombers (always used them instead of the F-18s).

The question is whether a naval group with the Nakhimov, 2 modern Gorshkov frigates and the whole Russian Northern surface fleet can be sunk by LRASMs.

Do they really have no defense? Naval I mean. Lack of CEC, lack of illumination,...

[Eboreg]

The question is whether a naval group with the Nakhimov, 2 modern Gorshkov frigates and the whole Russian Northern surface fleet can be sunk by LRASMs.

Do they really have no defense? Naval I mean. Lack of CEC, lack of illumination,...

The Russian Navy has been massively falling behind on ECCM capabilities ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. If you look at their air search radars, you'll find that many of them are incredibly dated which, in simulation terms, means that they're absurdly vulnerable to jamming. You know, the kind of thing that the LRASM is specifically designed to exploit.

[Nikel]

The Nakhimov own OECM and DECM is late 80s technology in the db, after decades of refitting.


This seems to be a reverse Nerf Wars case

https://command.matrixgames.com/?p=5349

[Knightpawn]

I play tested this scenario a lot. I came to the conclusion that if Russian ships want to have any detection chance - despite their technology disadvantage they should the best radars of the group of ships ON. They is no reason to conceal themselves from detection in the scenario setting

[Nikel]

The Felons detect and can fire to the LRASMs due to the 101KS-V, an IRST sensor.

Added this sensor to the Gorshkov frigates that are armed with Growlers (SA missiles), and this pair (sensor and weapon), is able to defeat the incoming LRASMs.

Also added to the Nakhimov that has no Growlers, and did not fire at all.

The Growlers were fired by the Frigates without the sensor, however always too late to have any effect.


An article on this topic.

InfraRed Search & Track Systems as an Anti-Stealth Approach

https://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol%209_1_3.pdf

[DWReese]

If the issue is easily resolved by simply adding a sensor, and if CMO is actually used to test war game scenarios, then it would be patently obvious to all that the sensor should be added. Without it, 3 planes can easily destroy 3 ships, if they were firing LRASMs.

Diving deeper into this particular scenario, the US only has 32 RIM 174s, which can defend against the 80+ Zircons and Kitchens. That doesn't even include the whole host of other missiles which can be launched against it. It does have 8 RIM-161s, but those need to be fired at targets above 330k feet, so they are essentially useless. The scenario, can only be won if the planes and ships can be destroyed before the missiles are launched. That probably goes against the intentions of the game designer.

While we talked about the LRASMs, the Zircon and Kitchens are almost as impossible to defend against. I've been testing this subject all morning, and the US carrier group simply doesn't have enough missiles to defend itself. So, both sides are extremely vulnerable.

[Nikel]

You have to play more the scenario

The US CSG may survive.

I think the best part of the scenario is that despite the initial losses, you may strike back and triumph.

[Eboreg]

Sounds like this scenario is heavily dependent on using the full spectrum of the survivability onion.

I actually came up with my own version of the survivability onion to be used when playing Command.

The layers are:
Don't be in Danger - Destroying any offensive capabilities that the enemy has before they can use them.
Don't be in Range - Pretty self-explanatory. Staying out of range of enemy weapons.
Don't be Detected - Avoiding, jamming, and even destroying enemy reconnaissance assets so they can't see you.
Don't be Identified - Limiting emissions or keeping your distance to prevent the enemy from positively identifying your assets.
Don't be Acquired - Use of electronic warfare to degrade enemy sensors enough to prevent them from getting a targeting solution.
Don't be Locked - Further use of electronic warfare and/or manual evasive maneuvers to prevent incoming weapons from locking onto your units. Examples include moving your ships perpendicular to the flight path of an incoming Anti-ship weapon in order to get away from where the seeker head will be activating or using terrain masking to defeat SARH SAMs.
Don't be Hit - The use of SAMs, automatic evasive maneuvers, decoys, and DECM to defeat an incoming weapon. Most of the time, this is out of your control and you generally want to avoid relying on it.

[DWReese]

I developed a plan that led to victory.

The Russians use whatever weapons that they have, and shoot them on a first come, first serve basis. (This is true for every scenario.) So, but keeping the US Carrier group hidden as best as possible, and jamming as much as possible, The Russians will find easier targets and then use their Zicrons and Kitchens on them. Once the Russians have depleted those, the rest can be handled, albeit with some additional assistance.

If left to the computer, the US will waste its RIM-174s, and the Russians will waste their Zicrons and Kitchens. I'm thinking about changing the restrictions on use, and see how that plays.

But, back to the original issue, the Russians can't stop many of the LRASMs (I did not import the new director/sensor), and the US can't stop the Zicrons and Kitchens, except by using the limited number of RIM 174s.