Air - *Night Missions*

[Wiedrock]

I'd like to also hint at the AA effectiveness.
I may provide pictures in the comming days, but until then I would point towards 2/3rds effectiveness of AA during night as during day. In the AA setup I used some posts above for A2A (but without A2A).
The damage done by AA to planes during day in the setup is about 1k-1.1k while during night it is about 700-800. So -33%.

Not sure in how far that would be appropriate when you are already changing 20-30% Mission effects for 1-3% in favor to avoid AA.

It is possible that Flak in Uraban areas performs differently during night than in a normal Hex due to search lights, ...at least that is something I would expect Gary to have added. I did not test this yet.

[Wiedrock]

I'd like to also hint at the AA effectiveness.
I may provide pictures in the comming days, but until then I would point towards 2/3rds effectiveness of AA during night as during day. In the AA setup I used some posts above for A2A (but without A2A).

Here a test series of 5 runs each of a setup I decided to do without Escorts (does not change the % much, just the total damage numbers it seems).
Planes use the 2x1000kg bomb.
Target Priority is only Manpower.
Planes are based as in the initial tests very close to Leningrad.
AA is inside Leningradd massed in SUs as well as there being some AA in the paths/adjacent hexes.

We see the usual RNG making it hard to get a proper sense of actual effects of things and proper numbers shown...

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Damages
Looking at the damage done by AA [Air Execution log] the Night AA damages (921 average) 65% of what the Day AA damages (average 1419).
So here we see the 2/3rds of AA effects I was hinting at.

Lost Planes
Looking at planes downed by AA, we have an average of 14.2 planes at night and 23.6 planes at day. Note that as usual there are planes that are shot down before bombing (this is reported in the combat log) and then there are planes destroyed by AA in the final calculation/conclusion of a mission.
So night suffers 14.2/23.6=60% the planes lost as it would during day.

We combine the damage 65% and plane losses 60% to 60% to have an easy figure.

Ammo
Ammo consumed by Flak is about the same, we ignore the slight difference of ~1-3tons and set 231tons as a base for both test series so no need to account for this going forward.

Effects
5x165 at night caused 2% effects.
5x165 at day caused 41% effects.
So the night mission, in this setup, with this 5 results each, is 2/41=4.9% as effective as day. We round to 5%.
So day is 20times as effective.

Efficiency
Now we can compare this reduction in losses to AA to the caused effects.
If we ignore the OPS this means we have:
23.6 planes lost for 41/5=8.2 effect. So 0.347 effect per lost plane.
14.2 planes lost for 2/5=0.4 effect. So 0.028 effect per lost plane.
So 0.028/0.347=0.0806 → 8.1 → 8%
So nighttime attacks are 8% as effective as Daytime missions when only accounting for AA caused losses. So we lose 92% efficiency.
....now if we include the OPS during night this won't get any better *hint*hint*.

For the sake....day takes 24.4 losses to AA+OPS and night 29.8 losses on average.
So nighttime vs daytime missions without A2A are 4% as efficient regarding losses as daytime when accounting for both, AA and OPS.

Now....also adding A2A.....I would propose (but not in the mood to test) it may get even worse since the Escort at night does not do what it is supposed to do.

Note: As mentioned the RNG is crazy. These are only 5 runs runs each only which have been performed in this order. 5 Other runs may therefore be able to produce vastly different results (like assuming the "best" of one daytime x5 compared to the worst of another daytime x5).
Additionally, if I had not gotten the 20% effect mission at daytime the math would have also been rather different or if nighttime would have had 2 or 3 Missions instead of just one with some percentages.
But overall the series's provide a good average I would propose, tho certainly not perfect.

Savefile attached (see Leningrad), one AD only. It's the nighttime test, just change the AD to daytime to compare.

pre AA.rar

(2.05 MiB) Downloaded 17 times

[Wiedrock]

Some numbers regarding night mission casualties:

three consecutive raids on Moscow [...] began on the night of July 21/22 [...] raids were conducted during the hours of darkness [...]

[1:]
195 bombers [...] 127 were able to reach [...] bombers were met by heavy antiaircraft fire [1044 AA Guns + 336 AAMGs] and 170 fighter sorties [...] while several bombers were damaged, only one Do 17 and one He 111 were shot down and another He 111 and a Ju 88 destroyed while crash-landing. [...]


[2:]
Luftwaffe returned with 115 bombers [...] bombers flew at higher altitudes to avoid Soviet antiaircraft fire [...] One He 111 from KG 28 was damaged by antiaircraft fire and destroyed during an emergency landing [...]


[3:]
next night [...] 125 bombers [...] heavy cloud cover [...] only one He 111 was damaged

Raids:

1. lost planes rate to all causes (2+2)/127=3.1% ...or using the starting strength including those that did fail the mission it is (2+2)/195=2.1%
2. lost planes rate to all causes 1/115=0.86%
3. lost planes rate to all causes 0%

[...] PVO fighters flew 1015 night intercept sorties in July alone [...] As the pilots had little training for night operations, 36 fighters were lost in landing accidents.

OPS of Soviet Fighters:

• lost plane rate to OPS 36/1015=3.5%

In the example I shared here the Soviet Figheters suffered 99 OPS in 548 Sorties. So 99/548=18.1%.

[MarkShot]

I look at these posts. Sometimes, I think we are playing different games. I got my training wheels on; and you guys are off and zipping around on 1000CC bikes! I am a high schooler playing a game made for those with doctorates.

[PeteJC]

There are lots of missions in the air aspect of this game but I have found all of them are pointless except:

1. Recon
2. air superiority
3. Ground Support
4. Naval Patrol in certain specific circumstances

Everything else seems like window dressing. Case in point, has anyone figured out anything worthwhile for the large amount of Russian Strategic air force units to do. Other than get shot out of the skies in 2-3 weeks.

[MarkShot]

There are lots of missions in the air aspect of this game but I have found all of them are pointless except:

1. Recon
2. air superiority
3. Ground Support
4. Naval Patrol in certain specific circumstances

Everything else seems like window dressing. Case in point, has anyone figured out anything worthwhile for the large amount of Russian Strategic air force units to do. Other than get shot out of the skies in 2-3 weeks.

I think much of the air mechanics was carried from WITW were it is a major aspect of the game. I didn't own WITE. Was air a major aspect of that game? (The fact, that the engine has evolved and that air wasn't ripped out or simplified for WITE-2 suggests that air will be a key in the next title to be released. Note, that I am NOT saying that it will be WITW-2 only that the conflict will be one where air played a key role. We can say it won't be a WITP-2 as this engine has no significant naval functionality, and the Pacific was very much air and naval.)

[Wiedrock]

I think much of the air mechanics was carried from WITW were it is a major aspect of the game. I didn't own WITE. Was air a major aspect of that game? (The fact, that the engine has evolved and that air wasn't ripped out or simplified for WITE-2 suggests that air will be a key in the next title to be released. Note, that I am NOT saying that it will be WITW-2 only that the conflict will be one where air played a key role. We can say it won't be a WITP-2 as this engine has no significant naval functionality, and the Pacific was very much air and naval.)

Air was redone/rewritten for WitE2 how I understood it.
The balance/effects in some aspects and many of the rules which were copied from manual to manual seem off.

Next is a Pacific naval war game.

There are lots of missions in the air aspect of this game but I have found all of them are pointless except:

1. Recon
2. air superiority
3. Ground Support
4. Naval Patrol in certain specific circumstances

Everything else seems like window dressing. Case in point, has anyone figured out anything worthwhile for the large amount of Russian Strategic air force units to do. Other than get shot out of the skies in 2-3 weeks.

GA UNIT works, but needs to be balanced in PvP.
GA INTERDICTION, see here for a overview and see here for an example.

STRATEGIC BOMBING
What certainly does not work out is Strategic bombing on tanks/plane factories. As Germans you'll usually lose more planes than you'd deny the Soviets.
What works at times is RAILYARD/PORT to stop/limit movements by sea (Leningrad) or by rail. But especially the latter having a range of 30 Hexes for requesting trains makes it hard to execute but you see an example here for T1.

Reducing the enemy's logistics by Air is something we need to figure out how to do by air (besides the interdiction example I shared above). So GA Railyard + GA Railway in combination....

[PeteJC]

Thanks, Wiedrock. I will look into your comments. Will be nice to add a "new" dimension or two.