Conquest of the Agean?

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Tzar007
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Tzar007 »

ORIGINAL: young turk

too expensive for me. i won't be buying it.

too bad, too, as HTTR is one of the best games I have ever played.

I guess you will find out if Matrix knows what it is doing charging the bejesus out of its customers.

It may seem indeed expensive, but on the other hand, you have to know the economics of the wargaming niche. Wargaming titles aren't obviously blockbuster titles such as Grand Theft Auto or Splinter Cell which sell millions and millions of copies in all consoles and PC. Wargaming is for an educated and very limited audience and crowd, and that's why it is a small niche limited to small sales. All things being equal, if you sell less of something, your production costs per unit sold are higher, everybody knows that.

However, people will argue that developing wargames do not require the giant staffs that major league developers like EA or Ubisoft have (staffs or up to or over 100 people per game for 2 years). OK, let's do the math here. We know it is sold at 60$ a piece. Let's say they will sell 10 000 units (believe me, I think I am being very generous here with 10 000 copies for a wargame). It makes a total of 600 000$. Just 600 000 friggin dollars. Even though the development staff is limited to 5 or 6 individuals, plus add to that a couple of other individuals on the publishing side, 600 000 is not much to cover the salaries of everybody as well as other expenses such as equipment, admin expenses, travelling to shows, etc.

Often wargame titles will sell much less than 10 000 copies, so it is barely enough to afford a decent living to everybody, and give you an incentive to continue churning out quality titles. And wargames are extremely risky business. You always have more chance of losing money on a title than making it.

That rationale and economic explantaion does not make the 60$ US any more easy to afford for people with lower income such as students, but the 60$ is justified and is definetely not "charging the bejesus out of its customers" - you could say that if these guys were all driving Ferraris and living in luxurious mansions, but that is not the case.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by KNac007 »

Given that it will be a digital release, this should reduce production and distribution costs A LOT. So they could stay at least with the same price.

BTW, I'm gonna buy it anyway so...
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by kfmiller41 »

IMHO there are very very few companies that produce wargames and fewer still that produce GOOD ones. I have paid 50.00 for FPS games and online roleplay games that are sitting on my shelf after only playing them for a couple of days. I played the heck out of UV and am doing the same with Korsun Pocket. They were well worth the money I spent on them vrs the enjoyment I got from them. I fully expect WITP to do the same and 70.00 is alot of money but worth every penny for all the hours I will spend playing it. If it means paying a little more to keep these kinds of games coming out then I for one am willing to pay it.[:D]
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David Heath
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by David Heath »

ORIGINAL: KNac007

Given that it will be a digital release, this should reduce production and distribution costs A LOT. So they could stay at least with the same price.

BTW, I'm gonna buy it anyway so...

Everyone thinks that Digital Downloads are cheaper.... well they are not... you must consider the price of the network and bandwidth and many other items.

David
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by MadScot »

The economics are what they are - board wargames had/have the same issues, many companies have gone to the wall trying to produce quality games, and I guess the PC market is nothing different....

My quandary is that HTTR is too good (or generous) a game.... with the number of scenarios and the replayability of each one (variable set upo options, then actual game play differences trying to "break" each scenario) I could be playing HTTR for a loooong time. So I have to ask myself, will the scenarios in COTA be higher up the "want to try" list than the ones in HTTR at the bottom of my list right now (I'm guessing yes) and will there be any chance of improvements (like bug fixing /Ai improving patches) in HTTR being dependent upon COTA sales.

I'm guessing I'll succumb, but it's not such a straightforward choice - after all, I could probably "skip" a game and just keep playing HTTR and be quite happy....of course, if too many people do that there won't be a game to skip to. Curse you, even my buying decisions are faced with game-type dilemmas now :)
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by young turk »

[/quote]
but the 60$ is justified and is definetely not "charging the bejesus out of its customers"

Combat Mission Afrika Korps -- $35
Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin -- $35

are Matrix Games 45% superior to Battlefront's games? I don't think so. And even if they were, I would not pay substantially more for them, for the same reason I would not pay 45% to see an extra good move. namely, i don't volunteer myself to get screwed.

if the designers and developers end up with more money at the end of the day charging the hell out of their customers, more power to them. they will find out if the make more money using the reasonable HTTR price or the inflated COTA price.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Willard »

I have to echo young turks sentiments regarding the price.

I am a bit uncomfortable spending $60 on a game...even one I like.
I purchased HTTR for $45 and I felt that was a reasonable purchase.
I got a game cd-rom, case and printed manual (although a bit small printed) for that price.

I still don't see what I will be getting from COTA for $15 more.
There will be no cd-rom, as it is digital download.
There will be no case or printed manual either.
So I have to spend $15 more to get a game I need to back up on a cd on my own.
I still have to shell more money out if I want a printed copy of the manual.
Of course then if there is strategy guide, that is still another $15 to spend.
Then down the road, if I want software that will implement COTA changes for HTTR that is another price still TBD.

Somehow, if I missed something here, please let me know.
Although I love HTTR, I can't envision myself spending $15 more on COTA to get less than what I got when I paid $45 for HTTR.
No offense Panther, but I think I you may have overestimated the price the market will bear.
Your asking loyal customers to swallow a large pill when it comes to $60 for COTA.
Although I have not made a final decision (and wont until reviews for the final product come out), my strong inclination is to pass on COTA. I just can't justify to myself a 33% price increase for arguably less product.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by EricGuitarJames »

Willard wrote
Somehow, if I missed something here, please let me know

From earlier in the thread, David Heath stated:-
quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
Just please make sure to offer DVD cases with a nice printed cover for the non-retail games since I want them in my collection. I do not want to download and burn....I want a collection darn it!


For now all you will be getting is a CD with our CD On Demand option. Come sometime in August we will be changing that so that CD On Demand orders will ship with a DVD Movie case and CD for the same price. The price of $9.99 does include shipping.

David



Since COTA is still some months away from 'going gold' I'm going to hang fire on this for now. Matrix has only just implemented its 'download only' scheme for a lot of its games and I suspect that things may change in the coming months. It has to be said that $70 (which is over 40GBP) seems a bit steep for a game that I would expect to retail at about 75% of that in the shops.
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Willard
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Willard »

Eric-

$9.99 for S&H and the case??? As you pointed out we are at $70. Now throw in another $10 (conservative) if you want the manual printed nicely from the pdf file included. That gets us to $80. Plus we no one has really mentioned the price to upgrade HTTR to the COTA features. Bottomline is that $70 is too steep for me...and I have seriously thought about not buying other games to justify a COTA purchase, but at $25 over the cost of HTTR??? Thats tough, real tough.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

I am disappointed to say I am with the nay-sayers here.

Not only I find 60 USD far too much for a "slightly expanded expansion pack", but - what is more important - I don't like the general reasoning behind this, and the general strategy Matrix and Panther seem to be taking.

I am perfectly ready to pay 70 USD for WITP, but, hey, by all means, WITP is like 10x bigger and was harder to develop than COTA. WITP is a wargame in a league of its own, made for us hardcore grognard maniacs, totally incomparable - in scope, size and time required to play - with anything else, let alone COTA.

COTA started its life as planned expansion pack, we all expected to cost like 20 USD. Don't remember whether there was any official or semi-official announcement re the planned price, but we all kinda expected 20 USD expansion pack, and no one from Matrix or Panther gave hints that it will cost three times as much, until a few days ago. Is that what is called "Bait and switch" tactics in US business lingo? [:-]

But that's less important. If it's only COTA I'd pay 60 USD say to hell with it any play the new game on the best wargaming engine currently available. What I DO find alarming is that this is but one example of the, IMO, skewed, and ultimately wrong business logic Matrix and Panther seem to be taking!

I don't accept the logic "we had to do it if we want to stay in business".

Here are some OTHER things you might be considering in order to "stay in business":

- DEMOs. Panther seems to have very hard and negative line when it comes to demo versions of their games. I won't go into demo discussions right now (they were discussed ad nauseam anyway), but how can ANYONE think he'll stay in business by charging enormous prices for "expanded expansion packs" (EEP in short), and NOT by making demos of their games? Strange logic indeed, the one I can't accept.

- Send review copies to the press that is *actually* reviewing your games! Someone from Matrix or Panther (David or Dave Arjuna) mentioned in this thread that they need REVIEWS of their games in order to be commercially successful. OK; sorry to "privatise" this thread in such manner, but I am journalist and editor. I wrote reviews of nigh every game Matrix published in the last year or two. Most of those games I had to *buy* from my own pocket. Most of the reviews were (well deserved) praises (94% for HTTR for example, 93% for UV) although I was very critical of some other Matrix games as well (EYSA comes to mind - 68%). I sent "hints" to David and Dave, like, "hey guys, could you add me to your review copies distribution list, pretty please?" No reply!

I don't want to beg for press review copies, cause I am perfecty OK with buying Matrix games and reviewing them (I get paid for reviews so it balances out anyway), but when I read that you badly want reviews, and I experineced that you are reluctant to send out review copies, hey, how can I not laugh at that?

Oleg
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by KNac007 »

This guy knows what he is saying [8|]

As I said I probbly will buy it just for supporting the continuity of the series, but don't spect much more people to do the same with the current merchandaising and cost policies.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by David Heath »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I am disappointed to say I am with the nay-sayers here.

Not only I find 60 USD far too much for a "slightly expanded expansion pack", but - what is more important - I don't like the general reasoning behind this, and the general strategy Matrix and Panther seem to be taking.

I am perfectly ready to pay 70 USD for WITP, but, hey, by all means, WITP is like 10x bigger and was harder to develop than COTA. WITP is a wargame in a league of its own, made for us hardcore grognard maniacs, totally incomparable - in scope, size and time required to play - with anything else, let alone COTA.

COTA started its life as planned expansion pack, we all expected to cost like 20 USD. Don't remember whether there was any official or semi-official announcement re the planned price, but we all kinda expected 20 USD expansion pack, and no one from Matrix or Panther gave hints that it will cost three times as much, until a few days ago. Is that what is called "Bait and switch" tactics in US business lingo? [:-]

But that's less important. If it's only COTA I'd pay 60 USD say to hell with it any play the new game on the best wargaming engine currently available. What I DO find alarming is that this is but one example of the, IMO, twisted, skewed, and ultimately wrong business logic Matrix and Panther seem to be taking!

I don't accept the logic "we had to do it if we want to stay in business".

Here are some OTHER things you might be considering in order to "stay in business":

- DEMOs. Panther seems to have very hard and negative line when it comes to demo versions of their games. I won't go into demo discussions right now (they were discussed ad nauseam anyway), but how can ANYONE think he'll stay in business by charging enormous prices for "expanded expansion packs" (EEP in short), and NOT by making demos of their games? Strange logic indeed, the one I can't accept.

- Send review copies to the press that is *actually* reviewing your games! Someone from Matrix or Panther (David or Dave Arjuna) mentioned in this thread that they need REVIEWS of their games in order to be commercially successful. OK; sorry to "privatise" this thread in such manner, but I am journalist and editor. I wrote reviews of nigh every game Matrix published in the last year or two. Most of those games I had to *buy* from my own pocket. Most of the reviews were (well deserved) praises (94% for HTTR for example, 93% for UV) although I was very critical of some other Matrix games as well (EYSA comes to mind - 68%). I sent "hints" to David and Dave, like, "hey guys, could you add me to your review copies distribution list, pretty please?" No reply!

I don't want to beg for press review copies, cause I am perfecty OK with buying Matrix games and reviewing them (I get paid for reviews so it balances out anyway), but when I read that you badly want reviews, and I experineced that you are reluctant to send out review copies, hey, how can I not laugh at that??

I won't be buying COTA (unless I go yellow with envy reading the first AARs, which is a possibility, and break my own word, which is what I *will* most probably do knowing myself [:D]). And if I don't buy it it implicates I won't be writing a review as well. I am sure COTA will be a commercial flop anyway. And you'd have no one to blame but yourselves Matrix and Panther. Though I guess you'll blame "unusual theatre of war" or something, for the (possible) failure.

See how you even managed to alienate some of the old and devoted customers in this thread? And you think 60 USD price tag with no demo will attract *new* customers? Hmmm.... forgive me for being suspicious.[8D]

Oleg

Hi Oleg

This is more of a expanded pack. Size of a game does not mean a better game. The expansion pack started out as a game on just Crete and expanded to cover Greek campaign, Crete and Malta. Oleg we look at the sales of Panther Games and we try to project that the next game will do and make sure it will net enough to keep both Matrix and Panther afloat.

Let me just touch on demos for a second and I not going to post on this again. We have found that demos do not help with a game like UV or HTTR. We went with an option we are calling Virtual Tours it gives us the ability to explain to a gamer what the game can and do on on terms they understand and the details they want to know. Does it tell everyone everything no but I think it does lead to a better understanding of the game then just clicking everything trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

Oleg I honestly do not remember getting any review requests from you. If Dave got any he would have forwarded them to me you can bet. In any case if you are writing reviews for our games for the media by all means you should and will get sent review copies. I also have never seen your work and would love to read them if you can send them along to me.

Oleg there is nothing to be suspicious of. Matrix nor Panther are in the business of making up stuff so we can charge our customers more. Matrix has more then proven its willing to provide good games and also free ones too. Result is simple either Matrix, Panther or both make enough money to design another game or engine or we won't.

Oleg has far as you buying it or reviewing of course that is your choice and we respect that. As for the commercial flop or success only time will tell. I do feel it will be a success thanks to Panther Games ability to design and develop a great game. As I am sure you read above in this thread alone that many customers will purchase the game and I feel and be very awarded by it.

David
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Willard »

David-

Thanks for the lengthy reply to Oleg's post. It was very informative and clarified some points.

I think you hit on the key point right here:
As for the commercial flop or success only time will tell. I do feel it will be a success thanks to Panther Games ability to design and develop a great game. As I am sure you read above in this thread alone that many customers will purchase the game and I feel and be very awarded by it.

I think everyone on this board is a fan of HTTR --- we all want HTTR to be successful and for the game engine to continue developing future games. And you are correct, there will be some customers who will purchase the game at the $60 price (which is really $70 if you want the cd!!). The problem I have, and several others by their posts, is that Panther/Matrix is asking the customer to spend upwards of $15-$25 more for what many consider to be an expansion pack. Based upon the limited info discussed about COTA, IMO there is not enough in COTA to justify spending that amount above and beyond the HTTR price. This is only exarcerbated by the fact that there will be additional charge to upgrade HTTR with the COTA newly implemented features.

Now on the other hand, if that $60 included the upgrade to HTTR I would must likely jump on it now and pre-order. At least than I can justify the money--- I would be spending about $45 for COTA and about $15-$25 (depending if you got the cd) for the HTTR upgrade. That $45 mark by some standards is a bit high for what could be considered an expansion pack (check out prices for Viking Invasion or MOHAA spearhead for a comparison...although those companies are bigger), but I would still bite the bullet to support Panther/Matrix.

Obviously my opinion is just that --- the opinion of one customer --- and for everyone that may agree with me, there will be others that will have no reservations about dropping $60-$70 for COTA. That being said, although I don't know about the economics of Panther/Matrix and pc gaming, intuitively it doesnt seem logical that the customer base will expand with a $60 price tag for COTA. Most likely it appears that Panther/Matrix has raised the price to that $60 mark with the assumption that the hard-core fanbase/grognard will spend that amount irregardless. Of course than the assumption is that customer base is what it is --- and that it is not going to expand beyond that original niche market.

For me, as I posted above, I am still on the fence but am strongly leaning towards not purchasing COTA at that current $60-$70 price. At this point in time, there doesnt appear to being new in COTA to warrant a 33% price increase with less product (no cd/case/printed manuel). Obviously I will wait and see if Panther/Matrix will "wow" me in the next few months, but to be honest I am not too confident at this point.

On a final note, I would like express appreciation [&o] to everyone in this thread for keeping things civil and mature. Many times when issues like these are discussed, the threads easily become hijacked into flame wars and personel attacks. I think it is a tribute to the HTTR crowd that this has not happened here.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Skyfire7631 »

As I said before, I'll buy the game if I have the technical possibility to do it.

I still think the price is a little high for a game without a printed manual, however, if the new campaign system is really good, I think this can compensate because of replayability.

If, OTOH, the campaign system sucks, I may very well (in fact I will) revise my opinion on buying or not.

Regards.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Mr.Frag »

Of course than the assumption is that customer base is what it is --- and that it is not going to expand beyond that original niche market.

The problem is that it is a *very* real assumption that needs to be made.

Look in the WitP forum for the post about ages. It really sheds a good light on the war gaming market. I think we have a single kid in the group. The < 30 generation is too busy playing with their X-Boxes and online games. They don't play war games. Each year we get older and there really is no *new* blood coming into the pool at a rate that replaces those of us who kick the bucket. I think Matrix needs to take HTTR's sales and knock off 20% and figure that as their market. That is realistic.

People under 20 don't buy anything anymore, they just get it off the web. Only thing they buy is the mod gear so they can copy stuff for their consoles. Anyone who doesn't believe this is living in a fools paradise. Look at the movie business, look at the recording business. Computer software is pretty much the same now.
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David Heath
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by David Heath »

Hi Guys

Let me also state we will be sitting down with Dave and Origins and discussing these items and we will be release more information on what will be new in COTA in the near future. Let me also that I want to thank everyone that posted in this thread.

David
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Marc von Martial »

That $45 mark by some standards is a bit high for what could be considered an expansion pack (check out prices for Viking Invasion or MOHAA spearhead for a comparison...although those companies are bigger), but I would still bite the bullet to support Panther/Matrix.

You can´t compare this to "sheer" addons as above. COTA is a standalone game, you´re right it was first planned as an addon, but that would only have covered Crete and added no new features. Now the standalone COTA is adding a lot more then only Crete and it is adding a lot of new features, most importantly the "Campaign" feature. I think people are underestimating the work that has gone into the campaign feature. On top of that it makes a complete new game out of it.

# New Campaign Mode: Fight a series of scenarios where the outcome of each scenario affects the subsequent path of the campaign and the forces involved. Choose which forces to use in each engagement, including the ability to place units in reserve for rest and refit or commit them from the reserve for action.
# Improved Interface, AI, Scenario and Map Maker
# Enhanced Map Terrain Effects and New Map Graphics
# More Terrain and Altitude Layers
# New Weapons and Units
# New Exit Tasks
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by EricGuitarJames »

On a final note, I would like express appreciation to everyone in this thread for keeping things civil and mature. Many times when issues like these are discussed, the threads easily become hijacked into flame wars and personel attacks. I think it is a tribute to the HTTR crowd that this has not happened here.




Cheers David and Marc for the info. Like I said above I'll just keep a 'watching brief' and guage whether it's worth purchasing when it finally goes gold.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Real and Simulated Wars »

Hello folks,
First of all, is a pleasure to see the mature way by which the members expose their opinions. It is no secret that this community is composed of very smart people.
I don't know how to react about the proposed price for CoTA. I am sincerely confused. It kinda reminds me when I bought a printer for $25 (after rebates and so) and then when I ran out of ink I payed $70 for the ink catridges. Is a bad example, I know, but from my wallet's point of view is similar.
I will buy CoTA, I wil not resist the fact of not having those high quality scenarios. I am sure is gonna be great. But (there is always a but, isn't it?) the price proposed for the expansion sounds unreasonable compared to the price of the game itself. I don't know a thing about the market or the game developing business. The only thing I know is that this game has a wonderful editor which I, being semi computer illiterate, could use to create a map and an scenario based on it. It was a small, non historical, crappy little scenario. But after 1.5 hours I managed to learn how to use the editors, make the map, the scenario and play my battle. Man, I was so proud! Imagine the face of my wife hearing "Honey, see that Tiger company in that wood? I puted both in there!". My point with this is that with CoTA we will be paying $60 for historical research, maps and scenarios making. We payed $50 for engine development, historical research, maps and scenarios making. Is this price mismatch due to the fact that in the case of HTTR, the historical research and almost all the map and scenario making were already done (from the RDoA)? In HTTR, we just payed for the new engine? In that case, historical research and scenario making is more expensive than making a new engine?
Cheers,

EDITED: THE PREVIOUS POST MAKES MY RANT IRRELEVANT.
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RE: Conquest of the Agean?

Post by Willard »

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
That $45 mark by some standards is a bit high for what could be considered an expansion pack (check out prices for Viking Invasion or MOHAA spearhead for a comparison...although those companies are bigger), but I would still bite the bullet to support Panther/Matrix.

You can´t compare this to "sheer" addons as above. COTA is a standalone game, you´re right it was first planned as an addon, but that would only have covered Crete and added no new features. Now the standalone COTA is adding a lot more then only Crete and it is adding a lot of new features, most importantly the "Campaign" feature. I think people are underestimating the work that has gone into the campaign feature. On top of that it makes a complete new game out of it.

# New Campaign Mode: Fight a series of scenarios where the outcome of each scenario affects the subsequent path of the campaign and the forces involved. Choose which forces to use in each engagement, including the ability to place units in reserve for rest and refit or commit them from the reserve for action.
# Improved Interface, AI, Scenario and Map Maker
# Enhanced Map Terrain Effects and New Map Graphics
# More Terrain and Altitude Layers
# New Weapons and Units
# New Exit Tasks

Marc- Just a couple of issues to touch on...

First off, no one here underestimates the amount of work that the Panther/Matrix staff have put in. You guys do a great job as evidenced by HTTR and the outstanding product support in patches after HTTR's release.

I think we all recognize now that COTA is a new stand-alone game from HTTR. That being said, for some of us it is hard to digest the fact that this new stand-alone game is going to cost upwards of $60-$70 as opposed to that of $45 that HTTR cost. Once Panther/Matrix releases additional info (screenshots, beta AARs, virtual tours, etc) I am sure this will become more clear. The bottomline though is that we, as the customer, have to pay 35% more for arguably less...as in no cd-rom, no manual, etc. When one adds in the cost to upgrade HTTR, this becomes a significant amount.

Anyway, we all want the same thing ---- that is a great COTA to continue in the proud tradition of RDOA and HTTR. Hope this feedback is helpful.
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