OOBs

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:32 am

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:

No, they don't

Test it yourself and you'll see, that a mortarx3 will not cause the same suppression and damage three mortarx1 will do.

I don't know, where the problem is,

Did you adjust the rate of fire when you reduced the number of tubes?
Should you?

Don't forget that when the game is designed, certain parameters are taken into consideration and some factors are hard-coded.

So change all the platoons to 1 mortar times 3 andreduce the ROF to 2 (one third) and repeat the test.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:34 am

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
, How where the use of indirect fire for artillery batteries?
Didn't they fire as a whole battery against a single point or area?

If you use your onboard howitzers to fire at point targets, you will dissipate their firepower. They are far more effective when they all fire on one target (and if the target is in LOS of the spotter).

It is not the game that is at fault if you choose to not use your batteries as one.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:39 am

Originally posted by Penetrator:
If the effectiveness is in fact a problem, you can get around it by creating a "real" x3 unit etc. Copy the mortar and make a new unit with 3 weapons, 3 times the men and 3 times the price.

This will not work. Only the weapon in slot one will be used for indirect fire unless there has been a code change. See the Japanese light mortar units that were built in exactly this manner. They are perfect for either indirect or direct fire. But watch your ammo.

Incidentally, remember how in earlier versions some of the SPA units would fire their machine guns indirectly? That was coded out.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:48 am

Originally posted by skukko:
What I've done: First custom OOB to get Finnish SS troops. [/QB]

Finnish SS troops were part of the German army and not a part of the Finnish Army. So buy German SS and rename them if you must.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Snorkel and tank: without snorkel 4-6 feet depth, with it to 18 feet depth. Rarity and use of these is beyond my knowledge.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
mosh [/QB]

Tauchpanzer III could operate at a depth of 15 metres (sealion)
168 were converted from MkIII tanks ausf F, G and H, also PzBefWg

42 were converted from MkIV. Used 22 June 1941- River Bug

Galka · Post by **Galka** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:46 am

Some of the best ideas I've read about lately on this forum regarding OOB rationization are as follows:

1. Seperate Flamethrowers from Engineer squads.

2. Give germans some close assault weapon squads.
i.e. Mp38s , teller mines, sticky bombs.

3. Change point cost to reflect rarity. (There'd be less TigerIIs on the battlefield if they cost 5 times a T-34).

4. Prohibit long range weapons such as a Nebel werfer from firing point-blank to great effect if not an actual attribute.

5.Bunkers, and SPWs that passengers can fire from and take losses in. (probably not an OOB issue).

6. Effective organic artillery. 75mm, 88s(against infantry); 150mm guns (that can't kill troops, crack fortifications, or penetrate tanks, fire indirect, and have little use to anyone except to folks who like TO&E's.)

Q1 Does anyone have any/many of these features built into a series of OOBs already?

Q2 What does it take to find folks to play PBEM with revised OOBS?

Q3 Does it bother anyone that we often fight battles with weapons that hardly existed, because they are better than the common yet less effective weapons?

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:12 pm

Sorry Major Destruction but renaming was not what I was after. Here it is again:

What I've done: First custom OOB to get Finnish SS troops. Project cancelled because pbems and online games need same OOBs for both. Next try and test was to buy under the Nations-button Finnish riflemens and changing them in scenarioeditor to German SS. This way I had similar weapons in all multinational SS- Division. And as tests showed: I had characteristics in there.

Its that National characteristics I wanted. It works when done as second try showed.First try went to oob-hell...Best thing by doing this is that in campaign I do get fresh mens under Finlands flag and their names are finnish as it should be. Doing other way this and I do get Germans.

mosh

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:48 pm

Originally posted by Penetrator:
One question: Why flame to the siege thing? Can't you get the desired mess by warhead and kill alone?

Yep, that's the reason for using napalm-class for siege howitzer. Maybe not that realistic, but now it kills nicely <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I decided not to mess that much with current infantry squads, so I pretty much leave them as is...new infantry squads would require space from unit-list and at the moment, my german OOB is really filled <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I also got other very good suggestions here (some of which I will use in my OOBs), thanks everyone...keep them coming <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:25 pm

Originally posted by Major Destruction:

Did you adjust the rate of fire when you reduced the number of tubes?
Should you?

Don't forget that when the game is designed, certain parameters are taken into consideration and some factors are hard-coded.

So change all the platoons to 1 mortar times 3 andreduce the ROF to 2 (one third) and repeat the test.

ROF is set by unit, not the formation, like the x2 or x3 factor is. All mortars of same caliber have same ROF. In case of 81mm/82mm it's 7. The multiplier comes in the formation setup and there it uses the same basic mortar unit (with ROF 7) for either x1, x2 or x3.
So reducing the ROF would not be correct or helpful.
But as Paul said, the multipliers will be gone in 7.0 anyway...

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:27 pm

Originally posted by Galka:
Some of the best ideas I've read about lately on this forum regarding OOB rationization are as follows:

1. Seperate Flamethrowers from Engineer squads.

2. Give germans some close assault weapon squads.
i.e. Mp38s , teller mines, sticky bombs.

3. Change point cost to reflect rarity. (There'd be less TigerIIs on the battlefield if they cost 5 times a T-34).

4. Prohibit long range weapons such as a Nebel werfer from firing point-blank to great effect if not an actual attribute.

5.Bunkers, and SPWs that passengers can fire from and take losses in. (probably not an OOB issue).

1. excellent idea, I started working on it! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

2. deleted early german rifle squad (1930-1934, edited squad available 1935 onwards to be available 1930 ->) and created SMG infantry instead. Game uses this squad as platoon and company leaders. Created also SS SMG sqd which is used as company and platoon leaders.

3. Changing the whole cost-system is what I'd prefer, but the amount of work to be done to achieve this is overwhelming. So I choose to price units as now, but I trust players to know about the actual rarity of different equipment and hope that players buy stuff that isn't necessarily state-of-the-art but what was actually used at that time.

4. I'm working on this, if you read my posts, you'll see that I'm asking for help with this issue.

5. I think this issue has more to do with game engine than OOBs.

Colonel von Blitz

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:51 pm

Originally posted by Galka:

Q1 Does anyone have any/many of these features built into a series of OOBs already?

Q2 What does it take to find folks to play PBEM with revised OOBS?

Q3 Does it bother anyone that we often fight battles with weapons that hardly existed, because they are better than the common yet less effective weapons?

to 1:
Yes, some of it.

to 2:
One set of overworked OOBs, that is regarded as "unbiased" and historically correct

to 3:
Yes, it does bother me a lot...

...and that is why I'm working on a set of OOBs, that is specially designed for PBEM. Many of your desired features are in there, aswell as some others mentioned here. I will post it after v7.0, that way it will be based on the latest from Matrix.

A feature, not mentioned here will be e.g. divebomber abilities for Stuka, Dauntless, Val...

But different as the Colonel, I banned most of the super rare and unique stuff from the German OOB to get space for the common things (e.g. more normal infantry types). My "custom German OOB package" on Tankheads site gives a hint, what to expect from the German OOB, but some changes have been made since then (and it is based on an older Matrix version)...
The most changes made are belonging to the German OOB, but I also included some general ones or specially for the U.S. or Soviets.

...work is 80% completed and the rest can be done only after v7.0 is posted...

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:26 pm

Q2 What does it take to find folks to play PBEM with revised OOBS

I would love to play folks with my reworked oob's, (I have used the seperate flame teams, among much more), unfortunately, my shp files are also WAY different from everyone elses in my custom install!!

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:50 pm

This will not work. Only the weapon in slot one will be used for indirect fire unless
there has been a code change.

It will too! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Just try it and see. Incidentally, I made an experiment with triple mortars x 1 vs single mortars x 3. The result was 18 kills vs 7 against similar targets. The effectiveness of x2 x3 units does seem questionable.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Nov 14, 2001 2:17 am

It should work for mortar class units, some other class units don't support inderct fire except for the first tube. (SP arty IIRC)

Check again on mortars, MD, as it seemed to work OK for me...3 mortars in slots 1, 2, and 3 seemed to work correctly.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:00 am

I just checked them and they seem to work fine

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:27 pm

Hi everyone!
I decided to release my modified OOBs, I have some more ideas for modifications but I will wait v7.0 OOBs before making any more changes. Until then, comments about my modifications are more than welcome.

Get them, and Peregrine Falcons excellent sound files too, at:

http://www24.brinkster.com/vonblitz/spwawsounds.htm

Colonel von Blitz

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]</p>

Uglykid · Post by **Uglykid** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:07 pm

Hi Blitz
I played my first Hotseat game with your OOB files. I and my opponent both liked them very much! Nice work! I especially liked the chances in Engineer teams and Flamethrower power. Cant wait your OOBs after V7.0 is released!

Jatka hyvää työtä, kiitos!

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:28 pm

Originally posted by Uglykid:
Jatka hyvää työtä, kiitos!

Näin oli ajatus tehdäkin, kunhan vaan v7.0 tulee ulos. Nyt ei vaan jaksa tehdä lisämuutoksia kun kädet syyhyää itsekin jo pelaamaan muokatuilla filuilla pari PBEM-matsia <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz

pax27 · Post by **pax27** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 5:13 pm

Oh, god...they went all finnish on us <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:45 pm

Það er erfitt að naglalakka kakkalakka. Figure this out, heee-heee-heee....

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:56 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
It should work for mortar class units, some other class units don't support inderct fire except for the first tube. (SP arty IIRC)

Check again on mortars, MD, as it seemed to work OK for me...3 mortars in slots 1, 2, and 3 seemed to work correctly.

But not Light mortars?