So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

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Mike Scholl
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer
I agree that the idea that the Japanese Engineering was 'primitive' smacks of left over propoganda from the war.

NO, it doesn't! The idea that one people are "inherantly" inferior to another is jingoist
propaganda and basically BS. But the Japanese were every bit as guilty of that type
of thinking as any Western nation..., just witness their treatment of Koreans.

The "primative" nature of much of the Japanese economy is fact, not fiction. Their
infantry weapons are right up there with the Italians in the competition for the War's
Worst, as were their tanks. They DID have the best swords, but in the age of the
machine gun that's not much of an accomplishment. They were PRIMITIVE in many
industrial capacities simply because they hadn't had the time or the experiance or the
need to develop improved techniques. Look at the Yamato's. They were designed
to be "all welded"..., but the welding technology of Japan wasn't up to the task and
3.5 million rivets had to be added. Civil engineering was primitive as well. Not because
of some inherant inferiority of the Japanese, but because the need and resources just
weren't there. Manual labor was cheap and abundant in Asia, and Japan is the size of
California with even less usable acreage. There was no time or need for the Japanese
to develop construction equipment, experiance, or expertise compared to the US.The War in China had never created the kind of demand for massive and rapid Engineering
Support that American Civilian Construction had before and during the Depression.
The Britian and French may have been the first to develop Tanks (they had the need),
but they built them on the specs and chassis of American Holt Catipillar Tractors (which
only America had had the need and capibility to design and build in the first place.

This is not an arguement about what the Japanese economy has done since the 1960's
but one about what it could do during the early 40's. It has nothing to do with whether
one "race" is better than another. It's about CAPABILITIES in the field during the War.
And in regard to Engineering Capibilities during WW II, they were not in the same league
with the general run of Western Powers---and the US was in a league of it's own far ahead
of the rest of the world. The Japanese may have had some rather primitive engineering
vehicles (you see ocassional photos), but compared to the 10's of thousands of "modern"
Engineering Vehicles adopted by the US (and the skill and experiance to use them) they are not worth even mentioning in WITP. This whole discussion is silly..., and in response
to the original thread topic; NO, the Japanese hadn't invented the Buldozer. They were
still at the shovel stage.
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Brady
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Brady »

The simple solution is to simply add some Dozers to some the Japanese Engenear units...if that can be done...in the editor, for you own games, or perhaps Lemurs or another has already done so.

Given the inate biases this game is frought with I doubt we will see this rectifed in the game, or a patch that is by Matrix.
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Cap Mandrake
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Cap Mandrake »

In fact..isn't there at least a small advantage to non-vehicular engineer squads? Arent they air-transportable?
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
As a British wit in North Africa in December 1942 commented "The Americans don't solve problems. They overwhelm them."

The American way of war can be summed up very easily. Wrath of God Logistics. [:D]
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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Culiacan Mexico
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer
I agree that the idea that the Japanese Engineering was 'primitive' smacks of left over propoganda from the war.
I would say that in the far flung reaches of the Empire the quality of equipment and manpower used in engineering was not their best. The Average Japanese engineering Battalion was less efficient than and American Battalion for many reasons: the American had more and better equipment, plus having considerably more supply.

Do you disagree?
ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
If you cant see the difference between a US Seabee Bn with dozens of heavy duty vehicles, mountains of spare parts and virtually unlimited gasoline and a Japanese unit operating in virtual isolation with a few vehicles, limited fuel and 1000 Korean slave-laborers in sandals living on 1000 calories of rice a day...then I dont know what to say. Much can be accomplished with a strong back and a pick, but 500 HP is faster.

As a prior poster noted, the important thing for game purposes in the relative construction power of the units. That US units had better resources is really indisputable.
I think the designers made some choices. Perhaps the ‘correct way’ to do it would be to give the correct TOE of each engineering unit, but rate them for efficiency/effectiveness. Seabee Battalion were very good, while 1000 Korean ‘Volunteers’ were less so.
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by tacticon »

[/quote]I think the designers made some choices. Perhaps the ‘correct way’ to do it would be to give the correct TOE of each engineering unit, but rate them for efficiency/effectiveness. Seabee Battalion were very good, while 1000 Korean ‘Volunteers’ were less so.
[/quote]

The game already rates a Seabee as 8 times more efficient then a comparably sized Jap Engineer. That what the engineering vehicle does. EV acts as modifiers. If you airlift a Seabee and all they can bring is their shovels, they are exactly the same efficiency/effectiveness as Jap Eng.

Anticipating the next argument.

But every knows that Seabees used the Steel Mk III heavy shovel and the Japanese had to build airstrips with bamboo garden weasles. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... 0000629160

No, I have a picture actually showing a Korean laborer using a small metallic hand scouper on Guadalcanal! All Jap Eng show be equiped with these scoupers throughout the empire.

Absolutely not, you Japanese Fanboy!
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: tacticon
I think the designers made some choices. Perhaps the ‘correct way’ to do it would be to give the correct TOE of each engineering unit, but rate them for efficiency/effectiveness. Seabee Battalion were very good, while 1000 Korean ‘Volunteers’ were less so.

The game already rates a Seabee as 8 times more efficient then a comparably sized Jap Engineer. That what the engineering vehicle does. EV acts as modifiers. If you airlift a Seabee and all they can bring is their shovels, they are exactly the same efficiency/effectiveness as Jap Eng.

Anticipating the next argument.

But every knows that Seabees used the Steel Mk III heavy shovel and the Japanese had to build airstrips with bamboo garden weasles. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... 0000629160

No, I have a picture actually showing a Korean laborer using a small metallic hand scouper on Guadalcanal! All Jap Eng show be equiped with these scoupers throughout the empire.

Absolutely not, you Japanese Fanboy!
[:D]
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Tanaka
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Tanaka »

found a website on military bulldozers:

http://dozers.tripod.com/id17.htm

couldnt find any japanese stuff in it though....
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Tanaka
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Tanaka »

Still not much info: It does say they had a factory producing them though few reached the fronts. Seems like some units would have some bulldozers at least. I would give some japanese engineer units a couple of bulldozers.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:Y7 ... +war&hl=en:


The only remaining tasks for ground forces were the defense of these facilities and their support anchorages and the unenviable work of building the fields.4 Much of the energy of 32d Army would be absorbed almost up to L day building these air facilities. This was the more difficult since 32d Army had only two bulldozers and one earth roller. Japan had produced dozers in small numbers at its Komatsu plant since 1943, but few had reached the front. Since soldiers were thus obliged to use shovels, hoes, straw baskets, and horse-drawn wagons, construction was slow. Moreover, because of U.S. submarine raiders, it was impossible for the Japanese to deliver the large quantities of fuel, ammunition, and antiaircraft guns needed to operate the bases. Even more seriously, the planes themselves were not available.


Guadalcanal Landing: No Bulldozers Here Though:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0y ... +war&hl=en
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DrewMatrix
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by DrewMatrix »

Guadalcanal Landing: No Bulldozers Here Though

Nor did they land that railroad that was on the island[:)]
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Cap Mandrake
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Cap Mandrake »

You say you are CO of a Marine Engineer unit of Guadalcanal and neither the aboriginies or Japanese saw fit to build a bridge across the Ilu? No problem..just get a couple of Amtracks, drive 'em into the putrid black mud of the Ilu and just park the bloody things as $50,000 (est 2004 value) pontoons.

But wait....won't the engines and bearings be ruined sitting in the mud for that long? Surely they are needed to provide transportation and complete Henderson Field?

Nah...they have plenty of stuf...besides, just put in a req...the Navy will bring us some more. [;)]



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Mike Scholl
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Brady

The simple solution is to simply add some Dozers to some the Japanese Engenear units...if that can be done...in the editor, for you own games, or perhaps Lemurs or another has already done so.

Given the inate biases this game is frought with I doubt we will see this rectifed in the game, or a patch that is by Matrix.

This would be the simple "BRADY solution"..., to he11 with historical realities, just give
the Japanese more toys whether they had them or not. A post not far below this one
of yours DOES show evidence that the Japanese began trying to produce bulldozers
in 1943 (it fails to mention that they were underpowered, poorly constructed, and to-
tally lacked skilled operators). If you want to be a "Fan-Boy", fine. But at least stick
to pushing for things the Japanese actually had (like a bunch of relatively worthless
midgit subs) and not demanding that they be given things just because you want them
to be more competitive.
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Hard Sarge »

Hey Cap
Brady must be kicking himself for not finding that pic for his posts, it would of been a good one

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Brady
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RE: So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

Post by Brady »

Nice Pick![:)]


I like this one though:

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