StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ??

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

"Ebay doesn't sell anything, it facilitates selling"

Bullsh*t

eBay is the seller, and saying otherwise is moronic nitpicking. Without eBay you don't get the sale. Thus you need eBay to make the sale, thus eBay made the sale.
They are responsible for the sale, the sale doesn't happen in their absence.
So insisting that eBay is somehow magically removed set apart, not really responsible is no better than petulant whiny defiance.

Actually, Ebay is more like an AGENT then an actual seller
their more of the status of Auction houses also of the status of classifieds in Papers and More of the status of those free "little papers and such" Flyers printed with things for sale etc...

You would be making every Newspaper, Ad Flyer printer, Auction House, etc Crimnals simply cause their all the "in between" for the sale..

Oh right throw in the Real Estate Agents that help make a sale, taking a commission but who are neither sellers nor buyers..

Frankly, Ebay is the electronic version of like those "auto mart" and other Printed Flyer publishers who list Ad's for a fee and print out a weekly or monthly flyer.

For Ebay to be the Seller , Ebay would need have physical ownership of all they sold and truly own whats sold,they DON'T so your all wrong here.

And Software is only part of whats sold on Ebay..

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Home40

"The PC games section is getting smaller and smaller. One of the prime reasons for this is that console games are a much much safer bet for games companies in terms of piracy. "

The other reason is that console games are a safer bet for folks wanting, uncomplicated trouble free entertainment.

People who actually enjoy farting around with their perfidious PCs prolly see defeating copy protection as often the best 'level' of the game.

Copy protection errors can only further tarnish the reputation of PCs as entertainment for the busy parent dollar or the single-mum pound.

h40

I havent't so much seen software sections getting smaller as much As I see more and more software simply Jewel cased.

Think on that for a bit, If its simply a Cdrom in a Box with maybe an Readme slip of paper for late changes if not on the cdrom in its electronic docs then the software box takes up more space then needed..

I think BOXED software is what will be disappear and what IS disappearing but the sections shelves of just Jewelcased Software is GROWING, I see more 9.99-19.99 Jewelcased..

It makes sense, as more games come in just a Cdrom with all docs on the cdrom etc, software sections will grow smaller cause the space needed shrinks as more is simply in a jewel case, and more gets issued box-less...

[Mr.Frag]

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

[SlapBone]

This thread has a Twilight Zone quality to it. We have people who like to download games arguing that we need more copy protection (thus taking the games to a more retail type of distribution), and on the flip side we have people who would like to see more of Matrix' games in retail stores arguing that we need less copy protection.

Back on topic: I can see where Matrix has a potential piracy problem because of the method they chose to distribute their games. With an IP protection like Viatech's Elicense though, instead of having the verification of the key done within the software itself all verification and activation is done from a master server (or over the phone for the people who have dialup). The digital download aspect of Matrix' distribution is already happening so why not find a method that protects it that way. I have talked with people (developers) who are using this method and the going rate is about $5 a copy.

There is also a limit to the amount of licenses that can be active at any one time. The normal limit for the games I've bought, is 2. If I change laptops or have some catastrophic failure, recovering these licenses is pretty painless. There is a handy little software (dll) applet installed into the control panel of the computer that lets you "release" a license in order to move the license to another computer. I generally install all games of these genres (sports sims and hex wargames) on 2 different computers (my home desktop and my laptop). For betas a company can release a 20 or a 50 license key and then revoke it when the beta is over.

[Hexed Gamer]

Question, did you have any trouble logging in to read this post?

If not, good.

Question, if you had to log in to Matrix Games in order to get your purchased game to start, would that be a problem?

Yes?

Ok question, if this made it possible for Matrix Games to sell safely and securely all their games such that effectively they could sell you a same game for half the cost it is now costing them, would that change your mind?

Last question (and this is for the programmer types that might know because I don't).
Is it possible to make software such that it won't run unless something is sent back to the user from the source in order to make the program start.

I for one would not whine if that made game prices plument as if off a high cliff.

Of course, if the prices didn't actually come down in response, I would of course abandon the industry and just play my board games that don't come with all these headaches.

But there you have it, I am willing to give software makers the ability to decide who runs their software and who doesn't.

But is there even a point? Can the pirates merely break that too?
Is anything actually solved?

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

Well most publishers will replace broken media as the media itself is not for sale. Usually for postage or some nominal fee.

Frag, the reason software is different is because you're buying a license and not a product. That provides publishers with a lot of exemptions they'd be liable for if they sold goods. They cannot have the benefits of a sale when they also want the protections of a license.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

Well most publishers will replace broken media as the media itself is not for sale. Usually for postage or some nominal fee.

Frag, the reason software is different is because you're buying a license and not a product. That provides publishers with a lot of exemptions they'd be liable for if they sold goods. They cannot have the benefits of a sale when they also want the protections of a license.

Yea, but thats the problem, they had to switch to licence based protection because the existing laws completely blocked their attempts to protect themselves. I'm quite sure that given the choice, they would switch back to sales *if* the law granted them some measure of protection.

As it sits right now, it allows software rental companies to simply buy one copy of the product (and I'll tell you flat out that most didn't even *buy* the product, they get it on consignment and paid nothing) and rent it out to an unlimited number of people (who all made their own copy then returned it). After a while, they simply mark it defective and return it to the wholesaler who dumps it back to the publisher. Net sale = 0

Tell me how that is even remotely fair? Explain how an industry is supposed to stay afloat when that can happen?

I like Matrix's new method ... I download it when I pay for it and I get a licence key that is bound to me in their private forum. The next logical step to this is to make the key expire every 30 days so I have to go back into that private forum that uniquely id's me to the product and get a renewal key. This coupled with private patches that require *your* serial number seems to be the best way to fight this off as Matrix can go sit on the internet and find the serial number of the dirtbags who have donated their key to the world and lock them out for good. Anyone who uses that serial will have a 30 day demo effectively as no updates or extensions come out and the offender *also* looses access. Having to spend 5 minutes once a month to get a little key update so I can continue to use something is trivial from an impact standpoint.

My attitude towards this is "so what if society needs to endure a little bit of pain to fix this. In the end, we will be better off."

Look at the state of DVD movies right now, Piracy is *so* rampant that manufacturers have actually added support to their players for SVCD format disks so you can watch pirated movies. They know the market is gone completely and in order to continue to sell their hardware, they have to suppore pirated media formats just to sell product. Thats a sad state of affairs.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
As it sits right now, it allows software rental companies to simply buy one copy of the product (and I'll tell you flat out that most didn't even *buy* the product, they get it on consignment and paid nothing) and rent it out to an unlimited number of people (who all made their own copy then returned it). After a while, they simply mark it defective and return it to the wholesaler who dumps it back to the publisher. Net sale = 0

Tell me how that is even remotely fair? Explain how an industry is supposed to stay afloat when that can happen?

It can't, that's why it's licensed. IMHO we need a new category of sales that would eliminate the EULA, allow fair use and consumer protection, but protect the vendors from fraud and criminalise the piracy and unlicensed sales. I don't think that vendors would be happy with that though, especially if the terms "merchantability" and "fitness for purpose" were included.

I like Matrix's new method ... I download it when I pay for it and I get a licence key that is bound to me in their private forum. The next logical step to this is to make the key expire every 30 days so I have to go back into that private forum that uniquely id's me to the product and get a renewal key....<SNIP>

Yes, that would certainly be a stronger measure of protection than what's around now. TBH weekly wouldn't be an inconvenience. At some point though, we may have to face the possibility of DRM being imposed at the OS or hardware level. That might be great for the makers of Doom, but not for Matrix where the costs might outweight the benefits.

I'd like to think that the vast majority of gamers who buy Matrix products are responsible enough to not be pirates. I just can't imagine someone stealing Doom and War In The Pacific, it just doesn't seem to fit.

My attitude towards this is "so what if society needs to endure a little bit of pain to fix this. In the end, we will be better off."

Well I don't think society should be concerned with private business, especially not hobbies. I do not think it fair that others subsidise what I enjoy playing.

<...re DVD's>Thats a sad state of affairs.

I agree, but it's the industry's problem. If I hung $20 bills out on my front lawn and acted surprised and hurt that people were stealing them, I doubt I would have the audacity to whine about it to you. In their rush to ensure that DVD regions would protect the right for gouging (preventing someone in England from buying cheaper in the US etc) they never considered piracy or a solution to it. IMHO, the DVD industry is reaping what it sowed and deserves every penny they lose.

[Home40]

"I havent't so much seen software sections getting smaller as much As I see more and more software simply Jewel cased. " Nice one - the dangers of anecdotal evidence... . [:D]

'Make this point every time this property rights/MP3/downloading/copying stuff comes up:

Once perfect anti-electronic-media-theft has been achieved and everyone who plays/listens/watches is a paying customer, I really wonder if the industry truly will be awash with untapped wealth or merely sqeezing more from a smaller audience. I really doubt a simple 5 million PC owners = 5 million customers. How many households bought machines with piracy aforethought (including console 'chipping') and otherwise would retire from cyberspace if they had to pay through-the-nose withal?

How many drivers if no more second hand deals?

Perhaps it doesn't apply to niches such as some Matrixgames titles... but then again... .

I'm sure most pll prefer to buy legit stuff but will use hooky gear if it means not going without. I'm sure a lot of ppl are consuming half lifetimes of 'stolen' DVDs and games when their pockets are telling them to watch state TV or read library books instead but who are also buying legit wares along the way.

The way I see it you have the free market and you have the flea market like two rails of a railway track: take one away and you might as well walk. [:D]

h40

[Mr.Frag]

I wonder just how many people would have actually bought computers in the last 5 years had the guys selling them *also* said "Oh, by the way, the price of the computer you are buying today is nothing compared to what you will pay for software over the life of the computer"

So many times I have heard "Oh, don't worry about that, I have a friend ..."

It's like an entire generation expects free movies, free music, free software, free whatever...

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

Actually, Ebay is more like an AGENT then an actual seller
their more of the status of Auction houses also of the status of classifieds in Papers and More of the status of those free "little papers and such" Flyers printed with things for sale etc...

You would be making every Newspaper, Ad Flyer printer, Auction House, etc Crimnals simply cause their all the "in between" for the sale..

Oh right throw in the Real Estate Agents that help make a sale, taking a commission but who are neither sellers nor buyers..

Frankly, Ebay is the electronic version of like those "auto mart" and other Printed Flyer publishers who list Ad's for a fee and print out a weekly or monthly flyer.

For Ebay to be the Seller , Ebay would need have physical ownership of all they sold and truly own whats sold,they DON'T so your all wrong here.

And Software is only part of whats sold on Ebay..

Hang on. Newspapers don't print advertisements for crack houses or Nigerian email scams. I also seem to recall that when I was a landlord, I was indeed responsible to ensure that my premises weren't used for any illegal activity. If you rent a house to someone and they use it for a meth lab, and you know about it, then you are surely partly responsible? This seems to me to be analagous to eBay hosting an advertisement for items they know to be pirated.

JMO as a private citizen of course.

Regards
33

[dinsdale]

Hang on. Newspapers don't print advertisements for crack houses or Nigerian email scams. I also seem to recall that when I was a landlord, I was indeed responsible to ensure that my premises weren't used for any illegal activity. If you rent a house to someone and they use it for a meth lab, and you know about it, then you are surely partly responsible? This seems to me to be analagous to eBay hosting an advertisement for items they know to be pirated.

JMO as a private citizen of course.

Regards
33

Copyright infringement is not a criminal offence, thus Ebay are not allowing sales analagaous to crack house adverts. Newspapers do allow illegal cable box adverts, and fake medicine adverts, should ebay be held to a higher standard?

I find it strange that ebay has done nothing in response to requests from Matrix, I have seen bootleg concerts and pirated TV shows removed from auction after ebay are informed of the matter.

Now please get back to finishing CoTA, we're dying out here! [:)]

[ravinhood]

I don't think that vendors would be happy with that though, especially if the terms "merchantability" and "fitness for purpose" were included.

Heh, I agree with you again Dinsdale, lol. When software developers/publishers want to provide "perfect" merchantability and fitness for purpose without fault software, I don't care how they copy protect then. But, I want that "refund/return" policy or no way in heck will I ever support such.

Someone asked about cracking. Anything media/digital can be cracked or hacked, there's just no way around it. Once inside the operating program a professional will discover the information only provided by the service and merely copy it, and apply it to the program, burn it to a fresh cd and have a complete working program without needing the online service to acitvate the program again. You can't "hide" anything from a professional hacker/cracker. You can put it 10 miles deep inside the program (an there are only so many lines of code) that they will eventually find it and crack it.

The only real protection will be like the mmorpgs are doing it. Where the client has "no access" to the data to play the game, it's all server side and then would need high security measures like Everquest and the rest. But, as I said before, even those over time were cracked, but, not as far as the program to sell, but, code within the program was altered to create more items or more platinum. When you don't have media to copy, or download, it's pretty hard to steal the software. They can still crack the code, but, they can't steal the software and sell it for $4.95 on the internet. Have you ever seen any of the new MMORPG's for sale on the internet for $4.95? Nope. Now, what they would do, would be goto software store and rip the CD KEYS from the retail boxes (back when EBgames and Software Etc gave refunds/returns this was common practice, now EBgames and Software etc have a no refund/no return policy on online CD key games), this saved them the $50 for basically what we all paid for the CD KEY, and then some even tried cd duplicating methods, but, those were thwarted as well.

That's where I believe the software industry will eventually go. All games must be played online (except for the few retail sales of large games I'm sure they will still market and then the lil guys that can't afford that type of service "Matrix, HPS, Shrapel" hehe, will still have to deal with the same ole form of piracy until they too can afford to go the "play it online game" route.

I had read at one of the computer developers conventions just very recently, if not this year then last year that eventually computer gaming would "cost fo play online", no more free multiplayer servers, it's coming and I don't think it's far away.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

The Difference is in that until now, there were no easy bought and easy used DVD BURNERS.

Once the Tech is affordable and available and one has the ability to make an Archival Backup copy the *COPYWRITE LAW* gives the right to do so.

It is the L A W.

[:-][:-][:-]

A CDrom burner is pretty cheap, before that there were zip drives, before blouware windows 9x there was DOS and Tap Backups and Floppy Backups, so if the ability is there for a person there should be NOTHING on the software that would prevent copying to make a LEGAL backup/archival copy.

It is in the LAW that one has the right, a copywrite holder cannot prevent that without risking their copywrite being ruled void.

The Copywrite law covers both OWNERS and those that may make use!

When Photocopy machines came out it was ruled legal, the archival copy part was in there allowing make copys of what one owned for own use, personal use only.

It would be Illegal to copy and sell copys.

It is not illegal to Copy for backup/archival/safeguard original.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: SlapBone

This thread has a Twilight Zone quality to it. We have people who like to download games arguing that we need more copy protection (thus taking the games to a more retail type of distribution), and on the flip side we have people who would like to see more of Matrix' games in retail stores arguing that we need less copy protection.

Back on topic: I can see where Matrix has a potential piracy problem because of the method they chose to distribute their games. With an IP protection like Viatech's Elicense though, instead of having the verification of the key done within the software itself all verification and activation is done from a master server (or over the phone for the people who have dialup). The digital download aspect of Matrix' distribution is already happening so why not find a method that protects it that way. I have talked with people (developers) who are using this method and the going rate is about $5 a copy.

There is also a limit to the amount of licenses that can be active at any one time. The normal limit for the games I've bought, is 2. If I change laptops or have some catastrophic failure, recovering these licenses is pretty painless. There is a handy little software (dll) applet installed into the control panel of the computer that lets you "release" a license in order to move the license to another computer. I generally install all games of these genres (sports sims and hex wargames) on 2 different computers (my home desktop and my laptop). For betas a company can release a 20 or a 50 license key and then revoke it when the beta is over.

The problem with a server way is hat what if company goes broke or whatever and is gone, then suppot is, one pays for a license to use but no longer can activite a new install later on..

I'd have no problem if since the companys going and gone if it released a key to unlock all sold, unless the assets are sold and another takes over the support.

Otherwise then the license would need be term limited in agreement somehow..

I still use old DOS programs and games, good ones paid for with good money and I'd hate to think "damn, but SSI went out of biz, I cant re-install Pacwar on the new pc and activite it..." would be a problem for me now if such were done in 80-90's.


Btw I know the CP you talk of, where you release a license to move it, the Baseball sim I use is testing something like that on the Basketball game and our next years baseball game may use it, a problem I have through is if a HD crashs, you cannot possiable access the HD to remove the license... so your stuck, if companys still in biz likely support will help, but if its gone out of biz your stuck with worthless prg/game and money wasted..

Unless such a CP used the company releases a "remove code/key" or such so past customers still can use the product... If the company goes out of biz or just drops the games etc..

Theres the problem with "activation" and other such schemes, they depend on the company being in business so customers can get needed support.

[Kizardvexius]

Here some input from a long time lurker.

I am a longtime customer from matrix, from all 4 SPWAW mega campaigns to starship unlimited and starshatter, I like their stuff.
But I really love the fact that I do not get punished by a copy protection for sins made by someone else.
I also bought a TotalGaming.net account and I must say I am very happy with this system.

Please read what the creator of Galactic Civilization had to say about piracy.
http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=21895

So far, I fully agree with that guy.
Here are a few important quotes from that successful developper :
"In my experience of writing games, it's not pirates ripping us off of our hard earned money, it's been publishers."
"So I hope you can excuse me if I don't lose sleep at night that some 15 year old might have downloaded my game while some executive at a company (or former company) is sailing on their boat paid for by my hard work. "
"I know it sold over 100,000 copies out there. But people didn't pirate it much. Why? Because we didn't force them to pirate it."
"If the competing technology (consoles) can't be updated with new stuff after release, then you should exploit that advantage. And that means add new features, not use the Internet to supply updates that finish the game! "
"Once you make someone have to hunt down a CD crack, you've set them on the path of pirating the whole game and future games."

I have to say I am not looking forward being punished by some new game protection scheme. Especially when I have 2 kids messing around my computer, who can and did "walk" on a game CD. In one case (Baldur's gate2) I lost the CD, which would not have happened if it was not mandatory to play with CD in the drive. I know, it should be my problem, and it should not concern the publisher.

But this point is now more and more involved in my buying decision, so it's now more than my problem, it is also becoming the publisher's problem.

[Hexed Gamer]

Throwning in the towel.

I have seen multiple sides of this argument, and reluctantly I have no real all encompassing solution but one.

If we don't master this issue of how to make a game and ensure the hard work to make said game is not made a farce by someone along the way, be it producer, middleman pirate or casg strapped consumer, then the logical assumption will be that wargames should go back to being board games.

Anyone here ever actually see a pirated board game?

Much as computer wargames might offer this option or that option, one fact remains, each and every one of my board games has not suffered one iota of playability limitation since the day I bought them.
In fact, in recent years, I have been enabled to play my board games online.
And in spite of the fact you can do some clever things to thwart the real need to possess the physical board game for just that methodology, it is not nearly the problem magnitude besting software.

Soooooo glad I have neeeeeeeever been dumb enough to sell off ANY of my board games.

[Error in 0]

Why do people download cracked games? I think alot of the downloads happen just because its available. These people does not represent lost customers as they probably would not have bought the game anyways. Then you have those who download just to see if its something for them. If they like it, the chances are they buy it. Finally, I believe many crack games to avoid the CD protection stuff. I think it is very irritating both to have to have the CD in my drive just to play, and not being able to create a backup copy. The best protection I can think of would be to make solid games (people want to have the real thing if they really like it), with great box and manuals and charts etc (that cannot be downloaded), and no CD protection. BY fighting the customers, calling them thiefs, making the everyday use of the programs more and more difficult, you just end up with frutrated customers. And there will always be those who just crack the game.


JT

[SlapBone]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer



Anyone here ever actually see a pirated board game?

Cracked board games are pretty much worthless [:D]

[ravinhood]

Copy protection to me is nothing more than "keeping the honest people honest syndrom" and we are the ones who have to suffer all this copy protection bs because developers publishers think it will also thwart piracy! lol I've been playing computer games since 1982 and software piracy has done nothing, but, grow, CP is a waste of time, they should spend those resources finding out the IP addresses of those issuing pirated material and calling the FBI, CIA, Interpol and going after these culprits, not punishing their money paying customer base, whom since I am one of them get more and more frustrated with these newer copy protection schemes that just cause ME more headaches and pirates just laugh at them. I'm about tired of my honesty being challenged myself, my feetsies are on the "line", push me just one more time, thas all it will take, like they always say "if you can't beat them, join them" is that what the software industry wants to do? Push us all to the other side?

I want a simple CP scheme and the ability to backup a copy of the game should something happen to my origional version. Let's go back to looking up a word in the manual, lol, wasn't that fun? hahaha I think I hated that one the most, then SSI came out with one for I think it was Pool of Radiance where it had this WHEEL and you had to line up the wheel with the icons on it and then type in the words that showed up in the windows of the wheel, lol, yet, another funny copy protection scheme that failed. They've all failed, looks like they would just give up and just accept what they get is all they would get anyway instead of "theorizing" that if we make a better CP program we'll get more sales, how many years now has the software industry been thinking/theorizing this way? And has it worked? lol, no it's only got worse.