History of the War in CHina vs Japan

[BossGnome]

china is actually fine the way it is. Honestly, it is early jan 1942 in my game, and I have taken about 4 chinese cities...is this so historically inacurrate? I mean, you gotta give the japanese a bit of advancement opportunities. and besides, if china starts off fortified, so should japan!

[kevini100]

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

china is actually fine the way it is. Honestly, it is early jan 1942 in my game, and I have taken about 4 chinese cities...is this so historically inacurrate? I mean, you gotta give the japanese a bit of advancement opportunities. and besides, if china starts off fortified, so should japan!

No, I disagree. I've rolled through several cities within the first month that never fell in the real war. Done this a couple of times. The map needs to be reworked and some additional thought needs to be done on unit placement and fortification size.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: kevini100

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

[mogami]

Hi, While as Japan I have objectives in China I always give the Allied player a "grace" period before starting anything in China. In fact I usally allow him the first move and do not make any offensive moves before the Chinese launch an offensive. I figure if the Allied player is ready to play then I will become active in China. I'm in no hurry and I don't wish to exploit the ahistorical situation. Once the Allied player shows he is ready by moving forward against me I go into action.

[Arsaces]

Like WitP_Dude says : not only the japanese army is stronger but the Chinese are weaker : since the fall of Burma, China is almost totally isolated. By 1944 The Chungking regime was on the brink of collapse - even without the Japanese offensive !

In december 1941 and winter 1942, Japanese resources are earmarked for SouthEast Asia. Japan had shortages of everything, even bullets, let alone tanks and airplanes and oil. It would have been impossible for the Japanese to simultaneously mount major offensives in the South and the West (China) at the same time ! The game should better reflect this.

Cheers,

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

ORIGINAL: kevini100

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, While as Japan I have objectives in China I always give the Allied player a "grace" period before starting anything in China. In fact I usally allow him the first move and do not make any offensive moves before the Chinese launch an offensive. I figure if the Allied player is ready to play then I will become active in China. I'm in no hurry and I don't wish to exploit the ahistorical situation. Once the Allied player shows he is ready by moving forward against me I go into action.

I have done something similar in my new game. The Japanese will not make any moves in China until December 9th. The Allies may not move either however. Probably should be even later. I will see what my opponent says.

[Bandkanon]

Thanks, Arsaces. Your comments described the situation much better than me. I would also like to add my vote that the situation in WitP for China is ahistorical. Perhaps higher attrition rates for IJA units outside of the cities can be implemented to hinder the IJ player from being too adventurous in the vastness of China.

[strawbuk]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: sveint

Which is TRUELY STUPID when you consider it as the Chinese were the one "Allied"
power that wasn't and couldn't be suprised by the Japanese; having been at war with
them since 1937 and relatively "stalemated" for virtually all of 1941. The Chinese
should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared as they had been holding that
front for months. The fact that the game offers a Japanese Army that has just ship-
ped a good portion of it's strength and supplies out to fight a whole new world of
enemies even a chance of also achieving any major gains in China at the same time
is one of it's glaring problems. The whole Pacific War started because the Japanese
Army COULDN'T win the war it had started in China and was caught in a morass.

Agree - also interesting that in China, and at different times, we have both 'regular armies' espeiclally when Stillwell et al comes in to 'reform' to a certain extent , or when Chinese operate alonside other nations eg North Burma, but also local guerillas who need policing, AND whole armies acting as guerillas/light forces.

May be answer is: dig in the 'proper' chinese forces more (which we can all do on editor?) AND to reflect guerilla activity (and I think I understand what new zone of control does in new patch but may be wrong) have 'Japanese' hexes that are unoccupied and not in cities become 'Chinese' randomly during game. No new Chinese units but an inconvenience the IJA has to send a unit to clear up. You could vary chance/number that change depending on how IJA doing or an assesment of historic guerilla activity.

[RoyalOak]

I think too the way the Japanese-Chinese war is depicted in the game is ahistorical, mainly because this war was not a conventional one.

I just copy-past the description Qy-Panzer made in this forum a year ago (the original thread is here)

The war between China and Japan in WWII can be divided into 3 parts (from China's view): Resisting battle, seesaw battle, counterattack.

First is Resisting battle:

Now it is 1937, and the China war finally broke out, in ShangHai. Just as Mogami has mentioned, KuoMinTang put its Germanlized army in the front. These Germanlized armies are really powerful, because of both its fine German weapons and good training by German drillmasters. The campaign of ShangHai lasted several monthes, at first, Japanese army couldn't advance because the Chinese Germanlized army are just as strong as them. However, as KuoMinTang government hadn't finished the reformation of its army, the number of Germanlized divisions are rather small, and the ShangHai campaign is a really hard one, these elite armies are soon lost in the campaign. Other armies are not as good in training and equip antique weapons, they can't bear the attack of Japanese arym, and China lost ShangHai campaign at last. I have to mention the civil posture of China here to let you master better why other army lost the campaign so soon. During that time, China just ended its dogfight between warlords. The main members of KuoMinTang government and military department are from different clique of warlords, this is the same with the army. Though the central government had the control right of all its army, the commander of these army didn't obey the rules every time, in fact, they only obey their warloads' commands well. Because of this, central government don't provide equal supply, weapons and training to the armies belonged to warlords as those belong to KuoMinTang itself. So when the elite armies of KuoMinTang itself depleted, warlords' armies without good traing and modern weapons can't bear the attack of Japanese army, the other non-Germanlized KuoMinTang's army couldn't do this too, because as Mogami said, they hadn't finish the Germanlization and though they can get better supply than warlords' armies, they didn't have better weapons either. What's more, as some warlords were afraid that KuoMinTang want to destroy their armies by letting them bear the Japanese attack, (in fact, KuoMinTang government do did this, when some warlords' army are desroyed or weakened, the government cancel the army's designation, or reduce the size of the army)they didn't do their best in resisting and usually retreated without big loss. Just because of this, China beat great loss in the battlefield, many big cities such as ShangHai, NanJing were lost. This is the first period of China war, I think that this period of war is more like common wars in the west, because only regular army took part in the war. If the war continued like this, the history will be like brisd has encountered in the PAC game, Japan will conquer China, however, the war is different in the later days. Even in the first period, China really win some campaign, one is The Battle of Tai'erzhuang Mogami mentioned. However, loss are more than victories during this time. In this period, Japan's aim is just like paullus99 have said to conquer China totally. However, it didn't achive it.

The second period:

After 1941, Pacific war broke out, Japan has to transfer many of its experienced soldiers to the pacific battlefield. What's more, it conquered too many cities during the first period. Japanese infantry's strategy is to conquer more cities in China. If the war took part in Europe, than I think it is right, but the war broke in China. At that time, city is not the deducing factor in China, because the industry were not advanced, city is only a place where more people lived. The main part of Chinese society is rural area. Peasants can live a self-sufficent life with out cities and they are the mojarity of the population. So though Japan controled many big cities, they can't control the rural area besides these cities. Because the rural areas are too vasty, and Japan didn't have enough army to control them. Then a paradox came out, the more cities they conquered, the more manpower they have to spend on guarding them. Just as TIMJOT has said, if Japan want, they can defeat KMT armies in frontispiece battlefield, but more cities conquered means more manpower arrested in the area they conquered. This is not good for Japan, for its lacking in manpower, in fact, conquering more areas means going to be defeated in the future. So it stopped, and indeed, it has big problems in the area it conquered. Both KuoMinTang and Communist Party send many and many partisans to the back of Japanese line of defense. Things are often like this: in a county, Japanese soldiers controled the county seat, and some big towns, KMT and CCP soliders controled all other villages and small towns. Japanese soldiers are not as familiar with the terrian as Chinese soldiers, so thouhg they have better weapons, they are easily to be ambuscaded by Chinese soliders, then they don't go out often except one situtation: sweeping. Japanese army will drive sweeping action periodically, when the harvest time comes(TIMJOT mentioned it), they went out to rob the rice or at other time, they went out to attack partisans. Ususally Japanese will gather a bigger army by transfering soldiers from adjacent areas to sweep. The background I mentioned before can illustrate this period's war process. As Chinese hate Japanese very much then, Chinese peasants are always willing to help KMI and CCP partisans, they supply them, cheat Japanese sweeping soldiers,... What's more, the war in the east is unlike those in the west. There is no obvious difference between regular army soldier and millita soldier. Many peasants do faming in the days, and kill Japanese enemies in the evening or at any proper chance. In this period, Japanese armies are locked in China. But during these days, KMT and CCP really drove some big campaigns, such as ChangDe Campaign, in which Japan lost more than 10000 soldiers and some high rank officers, though KMT bore a much bigger loss: more than 30000 soldiers lost, Japan lose the campaign because it didn't get what it wanted, and was counter attacked backward. CCP also launched a campaign named "100 regiments campaign", because about 100 regiments took part in the campaign, they captured many Japanese beachheads.

The Third period:
After 1944, when Japan was drove away from pacific, Japanese generals thought that they should beat China, then, they can use transfer more power from China to the pacific battlefield. As the war last so long, both sides are tired and weakened. If China can't get enough supply from Allied countries, then, China won't last long in the frontier battlefield (though it will still counter attack in the partisian battlefield). What's more, Japan needs to build a new mainland transort line to supply its soliders in the pacific battlefield, because it is loosing the controling sea right, they also wanted to sweep US air bases out. So Japanese start to cut the supply line of China and build supply line for themselves, they launched many campaigns. Though KMT won some battles and even won a campaign, they lost most of the campaigns because of wrong strategy commands. Japan finally connect its supply line with pacific, but as I have said before, patisians attacked the supply line everyday, so though Japan army win the campaign, they can't defend it, and the supply line worked badly. US airforce still existed in China too. With US army marching towards Japan itself in pacific, China began to attack back, at 1945,08,15, Japan lost the war.

IMHO, some major changes should be made in the game. I like the idea of Strawbuck. Here is another : always give Chinese units a minimum amount of supply (let's say 30 or 40%), even if they are completely cut off. This way the Chinese player can try some guerilla tactics : just divide some units and send them in Japan rear area to cut supply line.
Or increase the amount of supply loss suffered by the Japanese when it is transfered to inland bases, to represent partisan attack on supply lines. This way, Japan should have more and more difficulties to supply his army if he attacks inland.

[kevini100]

This real nice book I have on WW2. Almost completely ignores the war in China. Amazing!

K-

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: kevini100

Does anyone have any good informantion or history of the war in China vs Japan. It seems like there isn't that much out there on it. When you read a book about the war China isn't paid that much attention. What I'm interested in is Japanese operations from 41-45 in China. What did they do? what was there plan or strategy?


Kevin

YOu don't hear much about the war in China from 1941 to 1945 because there wasn't much of a war in that time frame. Japan's hot war in China lasted from 1937 to 1940 and started really tailing off in 1941 as they reached a rough stalemate. Japan had Manchuria (taken even earlier) and had enough of China by 1940 to protect the western flank of its planned SRA conquests. Between keep a wary eye on the Soviets, and needing resources for Burma and then later holding the defensive line against the Americans, they likely felt further pursuit of the war in China wasn't worth the limited gain. Not until 1944 when they realized Allied held Chinese territory was well within B-29 of the home islands did they get concerned and attempt to do something about it.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: sveint

It is safer and more effective to hold and strengthen rather than atack in CHina.

I respectfully disagree. Japan has a unique chance at the beginning when the Chinese forces are off balance and not fortified.

While it is "safe" to just dig in and maintain the situation, this will do nothing to help you elsewhere in the Pacific. But if you can beat back the Chinese and free up forces...

Which is TRUELY STUPID when you consider it as the Chinese were the one "Allied"
power that wasn't and couldn't be suprised by the Japanese; having been at war with
them since 1937 and relatively "stalemated" for virtually all of 1941. The Chinese
should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared as they had been holding that
front for months. The fact that the game offers a Japanese Army that has just ship-
ped a good portion of it's strength and supplies out to fight a whole new world of
enemies even a chance of also achieving any major gains in China at the same time
is one of it's glaring problems. The whole Pacific War started because the Japanese
Army COULDN'T win the war it had started in China and was caught in a morass.

So far I'm locked two epic battles right now in a hotseat game with my 20 year old son. I'm Japan, he's allies. By the time I managed to mass forces and finally root him out of Changsa he had largely emptied out the interior, leaving behind just enough force to prevent airborne silliness on my part and massed 100,000 in Kwelin, 140,000+ in Hengchow, and 110,000 in Homan. I knocked him out in Yemen but then "discovered" to my horror by 60,000 Jap troops moving on Homan were hopelessly out numbered there so I moved all but three Yenen inf division to add to the assult on Homan. The remainder are way too weak to take Lanchow now so they are just sitting in Yemen keeping him from retaking the city. Meanwhile in the south I took Wuchow with little difficulty but discovered through recon he has almost 100,000 reserves at that interior base moved in from Yunan! No go there so I borrow the 38th Div from Southern Area Army along with two other divisions and move against him at Kwelin. He CLEANED BY CLOCK there with over 100,000 troops! So I left a holding force south of there to prevent michief amnd move the other two to meet up with the MASS of force comming from Changsa an Henchow. He also has 80,000 massed at Ichang! SO my four divisions in that area are uselss as well.

So now I have been engaged for two weeks in Deliberate attacks of 180,000 Japanese vs 140,000 Chinese at Hengchow and a 140,000 to roughly 100,000 or so at Homan in two EPIC land battles. And in the meantime he managed to somehow build Hengchow to 7 forts and Homan to 5! I'm very painfully, very slowly, winning having reduced forts to 5 in Hengchow and 3 in Homan and getting about 1.3 to 1 kill ratios on him. I will eventually root him out but i will be DECIMATED and out of supply when done!

So even with the somewhat absurd force structure in China, a really good Allied player can make life HELL there for the Japanese!

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

Like WitP_Dude says : not only the japanese army is stronger but the Chinese are weaker : since the fall of Burma, China is almost totally isolated. By 1944 The Chungking regime was on the brink of collapse - even without the Japanese offensive !

In december 1941 and winter 1942, Japanese resources are earmarked for SouthEast Asia. Japan had shortages of everything, even bullets, let alone tanks and airplanes and oil. It would have been impossible for the Japanese to simultaneously mount major offensives in the South and the West (China) at the same time ! The game should better reflect this.

Cheers,

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

ORIGINAL: kevini100

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

The game does a decent job of this. If you read my statement on my current China situation, I have Shanghai and Canton on auto supply and those two rather EPIC WiTP battles I have going in China are causing REPEATED auto convoys to head to China, draining the home islands dry and leaving my SRA offensive in Bornea and Sulwassi almost devoid of needed supply! Forget the Solomons altogether at this point (12 Feb 1942). My China battles are bleeding supply from EVERYTHING.

[Arsaces]

To be honest Zoomie, I'm still learning the system and puttering about with the smaller scenarios - I haven't started the 1941 campaign yet ! I've been relying on what others have been saying on this - which may not be such a good idea. Of course if these all out multiple front offensives they brag about end with an exhausted Japan by the end of 1942, well there is no problem at all ! At least that's what your own game reports seem to suggest.

Cheers

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

Like WitP_Dude says : not only the japanese army is stronger but the Chinese are weaker : since the fall of Burma, China is almost totally isolated. By 1944 The Chungking regime was on the brink of collapse - even without the Japanese offensive !

In december 1941 and winter 1942, Japanese resources are earmarked for SouthEast Asia. Japan had shortages of everything, even bullets, let alone tanks and airplanes and oil. It would have been impossible for the Japanese to simultaneously mount major offensives in the South and the West (China) at the same time ! The game should better reflect this.

Cheers,

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude



Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

The game does a decent job of this. If you read my statement on my current China situation, I have Shanghai and Canton on auto supply and those two rather EPIC WiTP battles I have going in China are causing REPEATED auto convoys to head to China, draining the home islands dry and leaving my SRA offensive in Bornea and Sulwassi almost devoid of needed supply! Forget the Solomons altogether at this point (12 Feb 1942). My China battles are bleeding supply from EVERYTHING.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

china is actually fine the way it is. Honestly, it is early jan 1942 in my game, and I have taken about 4 chinese cities...is this so historically inacurrate? I mean, you gotta give the japanese a bit of advancement opportunities. and besides, if china starts off fortified, so should japan!

Yes, Gnome..., it's totally inaccurate. As to the Japanese being dug in as well, they
should certainly have the opportunity. They didn't do it as much as the Chinese be-
cause of their attitude towards the Chinese, but the opportunity was there.