Does anyone else find this as odd

[byron13]

Thanks, Joel. But I, for one, am a Homer.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980


Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

.

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

1) The above sounds like criticism not an observation.
2) My panties are not in a wad.

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

2) My panties are not in a wad.

So you do wear panties, then? [;)]

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: byron13

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

2) My panties are not in a wad.

So you do wear panties, then? [;)]

I meant boxers . . . yeah, that's it . . . boxers. [:)]

[UncleBuck]

You see this is a great forum, I was expectign the normal stuff like, Yeah I am wearign panties, but only because you can mome early and thats what your wife threw to me. LOL

Anyone figure out that LMG that PZB posted?

UB

[RevRick]

Okay, Okay.. I'll admit it... I'm a Homer 1st Class, with 6 red chevrons on my right sleeve.. You will notice I did not say Gold chevrons, because I have not had a perfect service record. [8|]

RevRick, Homer 1st Class, Matrix Games Forum, reporting for duty.
Go Navy, Beat Army.
How 'bout them Noles?
Hail to the Victors!
Siss, Boom, Bah!!!
Etc., etc., etc.

[2ndACR]

Dang Zoomie,

What's a week extra wait? Let them go to the trade show, maybe see some sights and kick back a little. There is no other game company that has put out this many patches with the number of changes as fast as Matrix/2by3.

Course I only have about a week left to play the game for a while so it is no big deal for me. It will probably take me a month just to figure out all the changes that have been made to the game once I return.

Thanks Joel, Matrix and the rest of 2by3 for a great game. Take all the time you need for the changes. But have them all done by the time I get back in a year and a half.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

Sigh... I'm not being an apologist for Matrix at all. I entered this topic because it appeared to me you had some over optimistic opinions of Matrix’s financial ability to run a “typical” software company. I was only trying to point out that yes your observations would be right, IF Matrix could afford to hire all the help you so generously state they should be able to. You make no attempt to tell us how they can afford to PAY this help, simply that it should be there.

My point was and still is that Matrix can’t afford to do business your way. Your inability to see this fact shows a biased slant on your part and in my opinion simply isn’t a fair position to take. I agree there are probably things that can be done to make things run smoother, but Matrix is a new company and needs some time to mature.

Matrix publishes games, I am not their apologist (I have no idea what a Homer is) in any way, I’m simply an impatient WitP fan who understands why I must wait for my patch. If anything I’m a 2x3 FANatic, not a Matrix one.

Jim

[BartM]

posting dates always cause problems...

for me.. I have not been able to play a scenerio since the game release, since the computer bug has taken over alot of the ships/planes and so on... (posted many times by many people)

I really would just like the basics fixed, but it seems you all are doing a huge remake and patch...covering alot of the bug issues at once...

Not much we can do about it now, since we're stuck with this product until a resonable patch is released to play the game.

Though once patched, Ill keep my account active here for furture patches to this game, but Maxtrix has lost my business for any future products. Sorry to be harsh, but frankly the cost of this product and the large delay to fix the very basics of the game has made me look elsewhere. Simulation or not, game or not, historical reference or not, nothing in the gaming industry is this important to place 90.00 on only to sit and wait for it be repaired. Never expected a bug free product, but I did expect the very basic design to work.

best of luck in your future products.

[khelvan]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

[rhohltjr]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Okay, Okay.. I'll admit it... I'm a Homer 1st Class, with 6 red chevrons on my right sleeve.. You will notice I did not say Gold chevrons, because I have not had a perfect service record. [8|]

Homer 1st class for Florida State???

Hmmm. [&:] What does that (6 red chevrons)mean Rev? Assuming Chevrons are stripes. Red versus Gold would mean you were/are .... ??? Can't even guess.[8|] Caught dating someone from Florida???
Miami U??? [&:] Tennessee????[X(]

[:)] Oh. Sorry for hijacking this thread. You may now continue.... Yay Grigsby Billings Broils, sis boom bah...

[Tophat]

Hmmmn,
Interesting topic.........tell you what,all of us but Zoomie download the patch when it comes out and play in good health.Zoomie you wait 10 days after its released,continue your rant and get it all out of your system.

[herbieh]

Lets see......stay in crushing tension filled office with a million wolves at the door, or escape to germany where the beer is nice, the girls pretty and the crowd fellow wargamers.

What's the argument?[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: khelvan

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

[freeboy]

I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time.

By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

ok, don't yuou love these guys... at least we know .. my vbeef with matrix all along.. do what you need to do but stop leaving us hanging... I truly do not mind the wait if I get a reasonable timeframe...
Joel, you are aces... or betas or .. maybe alpha? definately not nates!! in my book
Matthew
freeboy

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: khelvan

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

Zoomie,

Get over it. Yer bitchin' isn't going to get the patch here any sooner and just because you would do it one way, doesn't make it the right way.

Go play a turn or something. The patch will come soon enough.

[Onime No Kyo]

Hmmm.....it looks like I'm learning about more stuff here than just military history. [:)]

Can someone please take a minue and explain a few things to this unworthy (non-software making) person.

1) How does the connection between Matrix and 2x3 go? I thought that Matrix were the guys who made the game?

2) I own a healthy (or perhaps UNhealthy) number of EA games including a whole mess of Medal of Honor stuff and an even bigger mess of EA Sports stuff. I dont recall ever hearing any patch issues. I have no idea who does their Beta or how big their staff is, but my impression was that if anyone came around with as many complaints as this forum has they would not even bother dignifying it with a response. They would quietly collect the bugs and gameplay issues and drop a patch out when they were damned good and ready. From my personal observation, their attitude is, if you dont like it, mod it. So the question is, do their games just come out cleaner or does the general market not hear about it?

3) How was this patching stuff done in the olden days? I remember playing SSI's Battles of the SoPac and have carriers teleport from Townsville to 2 hexes from Rabaul. And no one I knew had the foggiest idea of what to do about it. Now we're so spoiled we cant even wait a week.

TYIA for your time and answers.

PS....Joel, if I understood what you said correctly about your relationship to SSI, I want to thank you for helping me waste countless precious hours of my childhood and make me the geek I am today. [:D][:D][:D]

[denisonh]

[:D]Or in other words, "Just chill dude".

ORIGINAL: Knavey

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: khelvan



Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

Zoomie,

Get over it. Yer bitchin' isn't going to get the patch here any sooner and just because you would do it one way, doesn't make it the right way.

Go play a turn or something. The patch will come soon enough.

[fbastos]

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. You don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done

Can't understand why this pal is so upset with them folks travelling. The support from Matrix is excellent: the developers are always around on the forum, are forthcoming with the bugs and accept suggestions. Can't imagine of anything better.

Try and go to Microsoft telling them how you would like to have this screen changed, but be ready to be laughed at. If the programmers need to go to Germany to see that a P-40 is cold meat for a Me-109, and will be back only by a given date, what's the problem with that?

As for myself I keep calling for the patch, but I do that out of fun (also because it took me too much time editing the animated GIF and learning how to enter it on a signature, to just remove it now).

Zombie 1890, cool down man.

F.

[Belce]

I actually really respect this company more due to this situation. If this was a big software company we would just hear, "the patch is still undergoing testing and will be released when ready" regardless of the situation of the staff and the patch.

I apperciate the fact they send people to a trade show that actually know and care about the product than some pr booth bunny to say "it really rocks, you should try it, maybe if you can play it well you can date someone like me, chicks really do dig grognards." By sending their best and brightests few they are doing alot to support this game and game genre. Their target audience is going to be asking things like, "do you model Japanese plane losses due to non resealable tanks?" and someone with quick overview and brochure will not be able to answer.

Further, the game is currently playable, meaning that the patch is a nice enhancement and improvement to it and does not actually change it from unplayable to playable. If you are an actual programmer you would realise that such an enhancement is not as important as increasing exposure to your product, "You want to change the colour in this window for this, sure I can add that my to do list."

After all is done and said, this is a game. It isn't a piece of business software, it doesn't generate revenue for its users, it doesn't make or break you in any way and the patch will just be making a good game better. And as a final remark, "as a developer for 2by3 games, you feel that what I consider my best efforts to make and support this game are insufficient, then I feel that you would be better served by another source of entertainment than what I can provide. Good travels and sorry it didn't work out for us."