OT- Pacific Fighters

[Jaws_slith]

I've got IL-2/FB/AEP/BoE and PF and going to play at the World Championship IL-2 in the Netherlands next month. Not that I'm a good pilot but it is a lot of fun and I live in the area[:D]

[nico71]

ORIGINAL: Milman

The problem with Maddox is that he only accepts Russian sources as they are (in his opinion) the only reliable ones.

Don't you think that west europe and North american companies do the same thing ? They also use USA as only reliable source of history facts witch they implement in video games .

That's what I have said. In the sentence before this one above.

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: NimitsTexan
The KGV is a place holder; evidently alot of content was left out of the CDs (UBI and 1C did were cheap and did not want to spring for a third cd) and so will be available for download as a patch very soon. I am guessing some WWI US BBs will be in there.

Yeah I was surprised the game was on 2 disks. I expected 3 or maybe 4. I'm sure the game will get better after some updating. But overall, I like this title better than regular IL2, mainly due to the theater.

[Howard Mitchell]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Well, that settles the "realism" aspect of this game for me... Won't waste my time.

I think you're getting a very one-sided view of the game here - perhaps those who are criticising it would like to give you the names of WW2 flight sims they consider more realistic? I can't think of any, all have their faults and quirks.

PF, added on to Forgotten Battles and its Aces Expansion Pack, is in my opinion the current leader for WW2 flight sims. You will always get people who don't like the way a particular plane has been modelled, but the overall feel of the game is the best I have come across. I'd recommend it, especially as, like WitP, the makers support the product once released with however many patches they feel necessary.

[Jon_Hal]

wow, check it out.. this thread is so popular it generated it's own thread over at SIMHQ

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards ... 4;t=000499


I have spent more time with it now and am really enjoying it. In Witp, We order our Ships around on a massive Stratigic scale. Taking off from your carrier at dawn and watching the sun rise as you fly towards the enemy fleet is something to be experienced if you love the time period. It gives you a great perspective on the personal side of the air war.

Arguing about flight models and how accurate they were has continued since World War 2 and even then the experts then couldn't agree! some things should just be enjoyed for what they are. The best World War 2 Pacific flight sim yet. Sorry if you don't care to fly it. It's your loss [:)]

regards,

Jon

[Hard Sarge]

Well, my copy just got here, so I am happy (of course, hopeing that NBA2005 shows up tomorrow or so )

so now, I can be in charge of the whole war in WITP and then take and fight battles in the air too

come on UB, get the puter up and running so you can spend more money and go flying :):)

HARD_Sarge

[BarkhornXX]

Pro-Soviet bias - huh?? There seems to be more than a bit of anti-IL-2 bias on these boards.

For the record;
1. Historical Accuracy;
- Yes the KGV's are place holders, and yes 1C could not fit all of the content on to the 2 CD's that UBI allowed them to issue.
- And yes there will be a huge patch out soon that will provide much more content as well as revamped (more accurate) campaigns
- So - to focus on the KGV issue and say Pfft! - after that amazing series of screenshots is just churlish, IMO.

2. FM Masturbation;
- Hey RAM, have you even flown an FW-190A or D, or an LA-5FN?
- Neither have I - which puts us both about even on the bitch meter and allows Oleg to laugh at our opinions.
- Nico - the Zero was a zippo - the fact that your not using it right is not the fault of the sim. You say one shot = 1 kill? I've seen these claims before - and the tracks always show that there were multiple hits. An F4F-3 can outrun a Zero? Let's see a track then and we can all have the proof.

Is IL-, FB, AEP, PF perfect? Hell No - the GUI is "functional' but lacks character, the campaigns could use more as well, the AI is erratic, and why aren't there actually "accurate" national markings available out of the box for a game that bills itself as a sim.

However, Howard was right on target when he stated that there is NO WWII sim better - consistently overall - in the areas of FM, DM, Sfx, plane modelling quality, pit quality and the sheer number of a/c that you can fly.

Finally, I've flow RBII (loved it), EAW (liked it), CFS2 (loathed it) - and I passed on CFS3 -because I knew that post release support would be almost non-existent. With PF you KNOW there will be at least 3 patches that will fix some things and add tons more content.

Thank you all for allowing me to provide the rest of the story.

Barkhorn.

[UncleBuck]

Hey Sarge,

I am sorry to say that I have for the first time taken my PC to a store for work. They told me it should be back today or tomorrow. I am not holding my breath. I am certain that the new MB was bad. I was just at a loss after 2 weeks of having it down. Anyway, I will get that turn to you as soon as it is back up. I may see about gettign it installed on GF PC tonight but it is her box and I got to ask to play with it. [:'(]

UB

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
Well, my copy just got here, so I am happy so now, I can be in charge of the whole war in WITP and then take and fight battles in the air too
HARD_Sarge

That's about the way I see it too Hard Sarge. It's a lot of fun, the patch will improve it, and it's the PTO! [:D]

So I jump into my PBEM and watch Sonny [:@] bombard my bases and sink my carriers. Then I go into PF, set up a battle and get some revenge [:D]

With custom mission building you can make your own campaigns or play someone else's. Personally I'm having a blast playing a Val pilot atm in the dynamic campaign, and look forward to trying my hand as a fighter jock soon. Heck, maybe I'll take out an Emily for a jaunt [:D]

Anyways, if you like sims of this type, you'll enjoy PF. I stayed away from the CFS stuff so the only thing even close I had played before was a PTO mod for EAW. I didn't really care for that one so PF is a great title to go along with WitP.

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: BarkhornXX

Pro-Soviet bias - huh?? There seems to be more than a bit of anti-IL-2 bias on these boards.

it's called "Opinion". And FYI, there is A LOT of people (potential customers lost) who think exactly as I do.

2. FM Masturbation;
- Hey RAM, have you even flown an FW-190A or D, or an LA-5FN?

this is the most usual, yet idiotic, kind of answer you get on UBI forums as soon as you point out to a maddox games' FM error.

They don't discuss your sources, they don't try to argue. All they know is to answer: "have you flown one? no? then shuddup".


See, man, do I need to fly a Fw190A or D or a La5FN to know how to read original WW2 performance charts, flight manuals and personal quotes about both?. No, isn't it?

If you do have an answer to my question about FB (how does a Fw190D9 with low-pressure MW50 injection perform BETTER than a latter Fw190D9 with HIGH pressure MW50 injection?. For instance), then do it.

in the meantime you can jerk around with your stupid observations about FM "masturbations" somewhere else. You have your opinion. I have my (well documented) own. I share it. Share yours. But stop messing with everyone who think's otherwise and shares their opinion as they see fit. This is not UBI forums, where you can do that freely.

I don't need to fly a Fw190 to hold my own opinion about Maddox games, so respect it if you want respect in exchange.

thank you.

- Neither have I - which puts us both about even on the bitch meter and allows Oleg to laugh at our opinions.

and what Oleg gets for such a questionable attitude, such questionable sources (which he has -NEVER- shared in public, yet we have to blindly trust them), and such, excuse me ,idiotic support from the cheerful proMaddox biased support groups is that almost 50% of FB was owned by piracy methods.

I don't like piracy, at all. But Il-2 got less than a 20% mark of Piracy, and that was because something (people didn't know Maddox back then). People stops buying Oleg's products because "something".

"something" is Oleg, his "mistery" sources, his mind closeness, and the rabid supporters on UBI forums who draw any critic poster out from there burning down in flames.

But as I said this is not Ubi forums, so please go back there if you want to keep that line of posting. Otherwise, try to talk to others with respect.

However, Howard was right on target when he stated that there is NO WWII sim better - consistently overall - in the areas of FM, DM, Sfx, plane modelling quality, pit quality and the sheer number of a/c that you can fly.

False. Try out Aces High. Damage model and SFX are better on Il2, as does gunnery model in some ways (but not all). But FMs and plane performances are MUCH better in Aces High...in fact, all of them historically backed (and when you ask about the sources backing those performances they don't answer "I can't show them", they share them with you).

Historically-wise AH is consistently better than Il-2 or FB. Immersion-wise, as I already said before, Maddox games reign supreme. But that doesn't mean it's the best WW2 sim...because the planes performances simply aren't those of WW2.


oh, and in aces high I've flown in an area with 75 enemy planes present. And all of them human...in an arena with a total of more than 500 guys flying at the same time. So you might watch that thing about "sheer numbers of aircraft around".

if I understood it wrong and you mean the number of types of aircraft you can fly first-person, then Aces High ranks very high too. I lost the count, but you can fly more than 35 aircraft types of all nationalities, some five tanks and vehicles and even a PT boat.

[Hard Sarge]

Dang Ram, you get burned on there forum ? LOL, I been there for a while, long while and I have been known to complain about what I think is wrong, I havn't been shot down in flames yet

but as you say, you don't like it, so don't buy it, I hope you are liking WITP

that said, just been flying the game (playing ?) I must say, I like it better (so far) then FB or ACE, they got some good ideas added into the game

I was able to out turn and out move some Hellcats and F4u's in my early Tony, bailed out twice !, 40 to 6 odds are not to swift, even vs the AI

and the F4u was a dream, even if I was a little heavy handed and stalled the beast out, right at the wrong time (so made the fight much HARDer then it should of been)

still think, if you like sims, or if you like IL-2 style sims, this is a very good add on/stand alone game, if you don't, well, why you reading the post

later gaters

HARD_Sarge

UB, I'll try and get a fresh save out to you, hopefully in the morning

[BarkhornXX]

See, man, do I need to fly a Fw190A or D or a La5FN to know how to read original WW2 performance charts, flight manuals and personal quotes about both?. No, isn't it?

You have charts and you know how to read 'em - Oh please. So...your charts say one thing and Oleg's say another (and he is an engineer and you are what? - an "Aces High Lover" - and he - waaa, waaa, waaa - won't share his sources with you so case closed.

I can't tell you how many nauseating threads I've read on the UBI forums - courtesy of self appointed Luftwhining experts - that PROVE how porked the FB FM's are. You CLAIM that the "Fw190D9 with low-pressure MW50 injection perform BETTER than a latter Fw190D9 with HIGH pressure MW50 injection" in the game. What kind of proof do you have - really??

in the meantime you can jerk around with your stupid observations about FM "masturbations" somewhere else.

OK, dude no problem. And in the meatime you should stick to commenting on Acesh High as that is - obviously - your first love.

For the more rantional-minded I do hightly recommend PF.

Barkhorn.

[butch2k]

RAM,
You have absolutly no idea what sources where used in designing this sim, and not just Russian sources where used since a bunch of the documents used to model for instance German and Japanese aircraft are coming from my archives. For instance i would suggest before you critize the 190A-4 modelling that you get a copy of the Rechlin evaluation of a factory fresh 190A-4. IIRC i got my copy from the Deutsche Museum, and you should be able to do the same. If sure you'll be entertained by the the praises from Rechlin test pilots and engineers which found the aircraft so good that they recommanded that it was not delivered to units with such a large amount of defect and performances some 40 km/h behind data provided by K. Tank.
That some aircraft a modelled approximately this is true, since the sheer amount of data needed for modelling them correctly is unbelievable and most of the time not available.

Having worked of the original Il-2, FB, AEP and now PF and after spending thousands of dollars in the process of collecting data, i'm pretty pleased of the results so far. Sure there are still stuff to tweak, and be sure it'll when we got the data. For instance the US dive and torpedo bombers FM will probably get an overhaul when i get the necessary data from the US Navy Historical center.
The process is incremental, simply because it's really impossible to collect all the stuff at once due to the amount of research required and the number of contacts needed.

Cheers,
Olivier

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Dang Ram, you get burned on there forum ? LOL, I been there for a while, long while and I have been known to complain about what I think is wrong, I havn't been shot down in flames yet

no, not me. I've rarely posted in UBI forums, but I read them quite a lot.

Since the first day I went there I have seen lots of "flack" directed against others who did complain, saw the treatment they received, and decided not to say too much. If there's something I've learned from --certain-- online communities and --certain-- developers is that arguing in their forums is mostly worthless.

on those -certain- cases (thankfully matrix is not one of them) Devs don't care a $hit about what very knowledgeable people say, and most of the forum participants are product lovers anyway who will give you quite a treatment if you dare to suggest the product is wrong in any way. I saw it there from the very first time I logged in, and chose to say little. I have better things to do with my time than invest it in such an unfriendly environment for critics (even constructive ones ,as I usually am).

but as you say, you don't like it, so don't buy it, I hope you are liking WITP

Enjoying it a lot...and the community too. Very friendly forums, nice developers with open ears to suggestions, and a group of nice people who don't bash you for not liking this or that feature of the game...

For the money I put into it...gets the award for the Best Investment I Ever Did .

[RAM]

I don't answer to garbage so I will answer to the only part of your message that makes any "decent" sense.

ORIGINAL: BarkhornXX

OK, dude no problem. And in the meatime you should stick to commenting on Acesh High as that is - obviously - your first love.

I got burned out of AH. I played it too much ,and there was a time when it was fun no more. I quitted it because of it. I have good memories from it. Some bad too (as in any online thing you get some bad things with some people now and then), but in all very positive.

That was some two years and a half ago. Have tried new versions with H2H free-mode to fly now and then to test new planes, FM adjustements, and some few months ago the brand new 2.0 version (which I loved). Still have to go back for good, prolly someday I'll do it.

For being "my first love", it's been a damned lot since I last started it . Nothing out of the rational there. in my opinion AH is a way more realistic WW2 product than Maddox games' products. However I respect your opinion and preferences, and your right to talk about them freely.

So sad you don't know the meaning of the word "respect", nor you do respect my opinions, nor my right to talk about them. You very well portray the essence of the UBI forum community...so I don't need to say anything else to answer your words.




Butch2k:

of PF I won't say a thing. Of FB I can say little (don't own it, flew it only for a limited time on an online meeting). However you might tell me something about the Fw190D9 thing?...


Il-2 was probably the best game realism and performance-wise. All the german planes (Xcept the 190A4) performed more or less like I thought of them. However the Fw190 FM was wrong (something Maddox implicitly admitted, for as far as I know, he changed it in FB) in energy keeping modelling, and the cockpit view issues with teh 190 will never go.


The main problems of Il-2 don't come from the German side, but for the grossly overestimated soviet side. La5FNs running at 585-590km/h on the deck, LaGG3s overperforming Bf109F4s, soviet engines heating much later than german's, German planes' one-hit-pilot-kills, etc...

That was what destroyed the fun for me. The version of FB I flew was a blow: It was even worse in some aspects, the awful metal bar on the 190 cockpit was still there, and the soviet planes still were outflying everything. I've been told that later versions improved things quite a bit. But when even a beta tester of FB tells you that Oleg's doing whatever he sees fit to improve the sim's gameplay over realism you lose all the little faith you could hold on him. And on FB I had little to start with, after seeing how the Il-2 patches were worsening the situation, not improving it.


BTW I know you from other boards which I read a lot (LEMB mostly, after you closed your owns) and I have your opinion on the highest steem because I know you're extremely well documented.

If you assure the Fw190A4 is correctly modelled, then I have nothing to say against it...I know a lot about WW2 fighter planes but you do know way more than me ,so...

[butch2k]

RAM frankly i suggest you give it one more try once the next FB patch is available.
I'm currently working hard on the dispersion modelling of all weapons in-game which would change a few things...

The real problem is the amount of data which are available to us both sides of the fence, frankly i'm sure we have more data on the German aircraft than we have on the Russian ones. I may for instance produce documents showing hte 109 vs 190 rudder stick force evolution with speed. That's the kind of stuff i'm not sure Oleg has for Russian aircraft.
THere are many things which are unbalancing the game one way or the other, like the missing failure/jamming of weapons firing long burst or the way damages are calculated. And most of all the variation in performances from a/c to a/c of a same type and their evolution with time. Aircraft in game are modelled after factory fresh or nearly so samples, they are not the battle hardened a/c that have been fighting under adverse conditions for a few weeks. Or that have been built by unskilled workers...
For instance the LaGG-3 produced before the war or early into it where about correctly built but those produced afterwards showed some serious defects untils a skilled workforce coumd be built anew. Same goes for the Germans, the late war a/c and engines where not very good due to shortage of both skilled workforce and supply problems. When parts have to be built dozens of kilometers apart from sub-assemblies you can be sure that there will be quality control problems and defects.
Those aspects are not modelled, should they have been ? That's a question i frankly can't answer as while i feel it should have there would have been maybe even more people complaining about bias.
I would not like to be in Oleg's pants since he got flak from both side, "be sure" that russians have also some comments to make on German a/c modelling...
You can't unfortunately satisfy everyone.

just my .02$
But really you should try it again soon ...

[crsutton]

I have IL2 and FB and really don't see what the problem is. I never fly on line but enjoy the game. Really at a loss to think of a better flight sim. Perhaps some Russian bias but I have followed the forum for three years and when you sort out all the whinning, you come to the conclusion that there is really not much bias. Some planes need and get tweeked but the developer is tweaking flight models all the time with man patches and free add on planes coming all the time.

You go into the forum and ask what is the most uber plane and you will get 20 different opinions about 20 different planes. Check it out yourself.

Bias aside, it is the first sim out there that was not loaded with American planes. There is something like 200 flyable aircraft. The best being ones that you will never get a chance to fly in any other sim. I love it. IAR 81, Glouster Gladiator, Brewster Buffalo, Beaufighter, Sturmoviks, yaks, LAGGs, ME110, I15, betty, fiats, p39s, p40s, plus the standard American-luftwhiner crap[X(] Many more planes to come, JU88, liberator, B17. It just keeps getting better. Beatiful graphics, more planes than I have time to fly, cool maps, very good support and a tight community. I am sorry, I just don't get it. Whats not to like.

[testarossa]

It can go on and on endlessly, but i am killing 2-3 FW190 per mission on my P-40M without any problem (as RAM mentioned boom & zoom doesn't work for FW190 although AI trys to do it all the time, he-he).

Waiting for PF though till they fix it up.

[Milman]

The main problems of Il-2 don't come from the German side, but for the grossly overestimated soviet side. La5FNs running at 585-590km/h on the deck, LaGG3s overperforming Bf109F4s, soviet engines heating much later than german's, German planes' one-hit-pilot-kills, etc...

How do you know this ? Are you sure that your info is corect ? You think that your facts are 100% correct and who say other things he is wrong . If you like history facts you must read many sources to have most accurate facts .

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: Milman

The main problems of Il-2 don't come from the German side, but for the grossly overestimated soviet side. La5FNs running at 585-590km/h on the deck, LaGG3s overperforming Bf109F4s, soviet engines heating much later than german's, German planes' one-hit-pilot-kills, etc...

How do you know this ?

tested it in the game.

Are you sure that your info is corect ?

yes

You think that your facts are 100% correct and who say other things he is wrong .

noone has ever defended that original La5FNs could approach those speeds, LaGG3s overperform Bf109F4s and soviet massed-construction engines overheat much later than german's (in fact soviet engines used to have an "emergency" setting of...1 minute)

If you like history facts you must read many sources to have most accurate facts .

something I'm regularly doing since I was 8 (and now I'm 26). And when someone who I know is better documented than me corrects my point of view, I change it without a problem (see my answer above to Butck2K).



Butch2k:

Hard to give FB a try, as I don't own it. As I said I flew it intensively in a 4-day long online flight sims meeting. After seeing what and how it was, I decided never to purchase it.

if I ever get to go to another online meeting where FB is played up to the latest patch and I see an acceptable change ,I might change my mind and buy it. But for now, I won't do it. But I'm really wishing that what you said is true, really .