Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

[Diabolico]

Is generally a good thing, as it brings discussion.
Discussion generally brings advancements.
Notwithstanding I must admit I am surprised with the reluctancy on some people because I mentioned adding 3 more ships to SS. [:)]

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[Diabolico]

First of all let me state that I am not spamming this forum or trying to aggravate anyone.
This is an essay/study on the impact of Battleships on Starshatter. I've found it rewarding and interesting to do this essay. I hope you will find it interesting too.

Battleship Vs Carrier? Wich one is the best?

As you know this has been a topic of controversy on the Matrix forum.
I have decided to check the impact on SS of Battleships. To realise such an essay I have created 2 enemy Battlegroups :
- 1 friendly Carrier Battlegroup, composed of 1 CV, 1 CA, 2 DD and 2 FF. The CV carries 24 F-32s, 24 F-36s and 12 F-38s - wich is more than enough fighter assets for this exercice.

- 1 enemy Battleship Battlegroup, composed of 1 BB, 1 CA, 2 DD and 2 FFs. As there are no BBs in Starshatter, I've used a "Devastator" class CA, wich gives notwithstanding the enemy Battlegroup a "handicap", as the Devastator is actually a cruiser.

I have setted the 2 Battlegroups slightly over 150 Km apart, so no side could attack each other without getting closer.

I have created 2 missions for this purpose, wich you can get from the Starshater Central's single mission downloads page. The mission is called "Carrier or Battleship?".

On the first of the 2 missions (the "Carrier Vs Battleship" mission) I've flown the carrier. By using my entire fighter wing (60 fighters, notwithstanding) I got to destroy the enemy Battlegroup. Notwithstanding, the enemy BB still got within 36 Km of my carrier!



Although this test was very interesting, I wonder what would happen with a real BB. I am personnaly not convinced of the superiority of the carrier on the Starshater Universe. It depends on many factors, such as who is commanding what (Human vs AI, AI Vs AI, Human Vs Human). I need to test this on MP against a human for a final conclusion.

The second mission saw me leading the enemy BB Battlegroup into Battle!



I have formed the "line" and we all went in, speeding towards the enemy Carrier Battlegroup.
At first we dealt with the incoming fighters and one Tiger Class Frigate was quickly lost!
When I got close to the Carrier, it jumped to a nearby sector, leaving it's escorts here.
I've ordered what was left of my Battlegroup (1 Vendetta class CA and 1 Broadsword class DD), to jump into a nearby system.
The Vendetta didn't make it though, as the enemy fighters finished it off. I myself was considerably damaged (Fusion and Aux gone, as you can see):



Anyway, me and my remaining destroyer closed on the "USS Carrier" and I finished it off with a missile kill.



In conclusion I think that Battleships will add a "new and better flavour" of space combat to Sarshatter. I can't see how they might possibly unbalance the game. I really must conclude that they are "missing" and hope for their appearance.

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[Mehrunes]

There aren't any battleships in the game for the same reason there aren't any battleships around today. It's a boatload (battleshipload?) of resources for a single platform that isn't capable of doing anything that another, less expensive platform can't also do.

[Diabolico]

I don't think so. I think there aren't any Battleships yet because of time. Time to get a game ready on a certain delay.
And you can't compare 21st century Naval combat with 5000 years from now.
Today an antiship missile like harpoon could kill a carrier. Two would do it for sure.
In the Starshatter Universe, the Harpoon missile won't kill even a Baikal class frigate.
You must compare what is comparable.
Look at a Zolon Destroyer (the Vorlon like ships). A single one can destroy an Alliance Battlegroup, by taking ship by ship apart.
Also, 21st century ships don't have shields... so combat in SS actually amounts to a single aspect : firepower, the more you have it, the better!... and that's where BBs come in.
I really sugest you try those 2 missions I made for the essay to have an idea...
In the second, when I was leading the cruiser into battle, I hardly finished the job - but I did and the carrier is dead - as you can see by the pic.
Nevertheless, the 2 remaining ships you can see in the pic (the USS cruiser and the USS destroyer) would end me, as my ship simply "couldn't fight anymore".
A Battleship would have been hurt but nevertheless be able to continue the fight.
Other, ships have and will have less and less human complement (the 20th century's Belknap class cruisers had a complement of 477 and the Ticonderoga has 387).
Let me give you a live demonstration. I will fly a Zolon destroyer, you a carrier of your choice, with the usual 60 fighter complement. We will start 150 Km from each other, speed "0".
I am sure I will destroy your carrier. Wanna give it a try?[:D]

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[DamoclesX]

dragged that dead horse far enough yet:)

btw, I would own you in that competition:) you wouldnt even got a shot off:)


And if you want it realistic, try a range of 600km, because the carrier would have a fighter screen setup so nothing could even attempt to get that close.

[Diabolico]

Anytime, anywhere... baby![:D]
Meet you tonight on MSN to go over this on the Battlefield! The mission is ready! [;)]

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[Burzmali]

Now, if you could load a battleship with about 20 batteries of "fighter" missiles, it would ownz every ship in the OOB. I'm still trying to figure out why CA and DD pack torps and not the lances the fighter-bombers are carrying, they would be a heck of alot more lethal that way... [8|]

[Diabolico]

Indeed!!! [&o]
Very nice reflexion!
I dare say more : why don't vessels from frigate up carry any fighters? In the Star Wars universe, for instance, each Nebulon B frigate carries 24 fighters, plus 1 or 2 shuttles.
I am for Capital ships worthy of that name. Even 20th century ships carry at least 1 to 2 Helicopters...
Bravo Burzmali for the sugestion! [&o]

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[Burzmali]

Well, realistically, the fighters on non-carrier ships would be pickets to detect incoming bombers at a distance and distract them long enough for the main fleet elements to jump. At that point, the pickets woud be forced to high-tail it to a friendly base or through a jump-gate to a friendly sector.


On the topic of BBs, ideally, nothing larger than a Desron would be likely to be operating in a sector with active enemy bombers. It would be far safer to secure a jump-gate with a desron or two, jump in as many flights of fighters and bombers as possible through the gate, cripple the flight decks of any carriers and bases present, and finally jump in main fleet elements to sweep the enemy from the system. If at any point the battle becomes untenable, the figthers and bomber screen a retreat of the main fleet elements and then flee back through the jump-gate followed by the Desrons.

Battleships would most likely by too slow to take part in the first of the offensive, but would move in later to cover the occupation of the sector while defenses are set up.

On defense, the defender must either prevent the capture of the jump-gate, deflect the bomber flights, or repulse the main fleet elements. Defending the jump-gate with main fleet elements is a losing proposition, as they will be magnets for hit and run attacks through the jump-gate by bombers. Desrons are probably best, defended by fighter and bomber flights, but they face the risk of a 2-pronged attack (i.e. a desron jumps into the system and engages the gate defenders at long range, while a CA group pokes its head through the gate, attacks at point blank range and jumps away before bombers can be redirected their way. Deflecting the bomber flights would be the job of the heavier fleet elements. Due to the extreme distance that bombers can launch their payload (though accuracy doesn't seem to be too good...) the best bet is to screen the carriers and starbases with CAs and BBs while fighters and FFs shoot them down. A BB taking a lance to the flank is a lot better than a CV taking one to the flight deck. But, even if the defender has fighters all over the sectors, they all have to be vectored into the fight, while the attacking bombers and fighters will be making a beeline for the CVs. Once the CVs and Starbases have been disabled or driven out of the sector, the remaining fleet is pretty much out of luck. They can hope to get lucky when the enemy jumps in, but without bomber support they don't stand much of a chance. Bomber and fighter flights will distract the point defense batteries of the main fleet elements long enough for the torps from the attacking fleet to break their back. Even a BB would be forced to flee or die if so challenged.

Now, this is only my intereptation of how a multi-sector combat would play out, and I am sure there is plenty in it that the current SS engine makes difficult or impossible. But it does have a role for BBs, namely as defenses against ill planned retalitory strikes and as damage sinks, if not a glamourous one. Either way, BBs should either be grouped with a CV for use as an AA platform, or in a group with CLAA and DD for sentry duty. The third role of the BB, that SS currently has no provision for, would be orbital bombardment, but that is a topic for another day [;)]

[Diabolico]

Very well put and I have mentioned that orbital bombardment earlier.
Besides, one must not forget that with SS you can reproduce any universe, board games and even old battles lke WW2 pacific battles, where the BB too, will have it's place. [;)]

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[crazyeddie22]

ignore the ship in the middle, look at the ship in the bottom. this was the origional carrier/cruiser which would easily double up as a bb. the massive gun in the middle was supposed to be a graviton pulse cannon i believe but this pictures is very old now

[Diabolico]

Very interesting indeed Crazy Eddie! [&o]
Thank you so much for sharing that with us! Yeah like you, I think BBs should be reinstated - even use old models like the one you've posted here to double as BBs.
In fact, come to think of it, even in the Battletech Universe (more precisely for the Battlespace module), there are BBs (for use with the 2750 AD Star League period and for the return of Kerensky/clans period).
The main aspect of all those Capital ships including the BB is that they carry fighters. Even a corvette could carry like 2 or 4 fighters plus 1 or 2 dropships. [;)]
... other it would rock to test that huge, spinal mounted graviton pulse cannon!!![&o]
If you or anybody else still have other pics of big Capital ships from older SS versions please post them here. Thanks in advance![&o]

BTW, I will post this pic on the www.starshattercentral.com![:'(]

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[Diabolico]

Dear Pheaggy,

It has come to my knowledge that you might still have some "vintage" SS Capital ships, some of wich could indeed be enlarged and turned into BBs.
If you still have them, BBs or not, I'd be glad to have them as well.
If anybody else still has any of those SS "older ships", please e-mail me.

Thanks in advance,

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[DamoclesX]

here is your battleship:)

[Incendiary Lemon]

[X(]

[C06alt]

Look's great [X(] I like the dirty textures. DamoclesX

Apart from obviously possibly carring fighters what type of weaponry + speed + defence balance should a battleship have in comparison to destroyer Caps ect.

[DamoclesX]

Thats just the first run, I"m throwing out all the shield textures, those are the textures on top of those armor plates, they didnt work out right, I Screwed up the rez on them and made them to small, so when you get close they REALLY blur, so I"m redoing it, this ship will probably take up 3 2048x2048 maps... but thats okay because I"m fitting each of these ships to about 3-4 of the normal b5 ships... focusing more on missions and objectives then 10 ships pounding away for no reason.


Generally battleships have the biggest, baddest and longest range weapons, check out ww2 ships for a very good idea of how the weapons progress.

[Burzmali]

Yeah, but to continue the ww2 comparison, you need a good CLAA in there to cover the battleship or it will get cut to ribbons by fighter-bombers.

[DamoclesX]

I think ya, thats a problem either way.

You will need good pd and a good fighter screen.. or by by

[Incendiary Lemon]

I haven't watched the series, what scale are the fighters to your cruiser? Again, fantastic modeling and the texturing is absolutely ridicilous. Can't wait for February. [:)]