Moses vs WITP_Dude--China AAR

[tabpub]

Are you seeing that much combat that you have to draw that many replacement squads?
Or are you just fleshing out all those understrength engineer units?

[Feinder]

There's quite a bit of action. U2 has troops at the "normal" front line bases, Wuchow, Ichang, Chengsha, Homan, Yenen.

Sorry, I can't get into -that- much more detail since it's a game in progress, but I haven't lost anything yet, have captured the city SE of Homan, and my units are "holding strong" across the line. Sorry, I can't be more specific. I also track the assault strenth for the city (not the individual units tho), and tells me quickly if they're drawing squads or not. And I can say that, yes, my frontline cities are drawing squads.

-F-

[moses]

I did some research on the supply pts. Nothing in the manual. Found threads where some say its max load divided by 100 and some say max load divided by 2000. It sorta matters which.

I ran a few quick tests where I put transports and bombers on supply runs to unoccupied bases. And the answer is quite clearly 2000 per supply pts. 12 C-47's with load capacity of 10000 will deliver a maximum of 60 supplies each day they operate. Strangly when droping supplies on a dot hex with no airfield it was exactly 60. When dropping on a base with an airfield it would be a little less.

So if all your planes are moving supply from outside of China to inside China I estimate your moving about 525 SP per day. If you do this every other day it comes to around 8000 per month. Not insignificant but its not earthshattering either. I would recommend not even using them inside China as they only eat supply.

Once the Burma road is cut you won't be able to continue this as you will pretty much be forced to fly exclusively out of Ledo. Won't Japan be happy to see 2-300 transports lined up on little Ledo airfield.

Not to discount your idea of setting up this transport net. Its certainly a good idea and has to help. What better is their to do with these transports early on anyway.

[Hornblower]

well put, and thought out point....

[Feinder]

Once the Burma road is cut you won't be able to continue this as you will pretty much be forced to fly exclusively out of Ledo. Won't Japan be happy to see 2-300 transports lined up on little Ledo airfield.

I did the same tests (started a Scen 15 as head to head, set all the Japanese trans in IndoChina to drop supplies on non-road connected bases (to elimiate "flow" supplies, and then also set the C-47s in Fiji(?) to drop supplies). Yes, the number seems to vary. It also seems that dropping at a Lvl-2 AF is better than a Lvl-1, and Lvl-4 is better than 2 etc. Intesting abotu dropping on a "dot", I didn't try that. The numder I can to was about 1500, so youre talking 700 - 800 pts a day. Guess I'll just evac the RDAF bombers to India too.. :^)

It's obvious that we're just going to "agree to disagree" on it's effectiveness. At this point, I don't fly from Burma at all. That's what make the bombers like the Hudsons and IL4 gold (among others), is their range (and crap the IL-4 drags 5000 units). I can fly from as far back as Dacca. Remember that you can fly up to 1.2x your max range on a supply mission. Granted, you don't bring as much, but the whole thing is set up, with the expectatin that Burma will fall (and Burma Road closes).

And regarding not putting transports in China. This is also a must, because these are the guys that are dropping on your front line Divs. The road net sucks. While you can draw some supplies via the road (happens all the time), it's insufficient.

-F-

[moses]

Back to the game:

21 Jan 1942: My first attack at Ichang fails. I had 4 divisions and a tank Regiment vs 6 Chinese Corps. I had thought that the Chinese would have been rather depleted after all the recent fighting but they held up very well. Back to bombarding for a while.--Dude sent another corps across the river near Changsa and I drove it back with heavy losses. He sent another division to the rail SE of Kweilin and my troops are preparing to drive it out.

Ground combat at Ichang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 93025 troops, 1079 guns, 156 vehicles

Defending force 48097 troops, 289 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)


Japanese ground losses:
1429 casualties reported
Guns lost 46
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
225 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

[moses]

28 Jan:

My troops have entered Wuchow in force. I have 7 and a half divisions and tons of supporting arms. He has 9 Corps many of which are depleted (one had assault value of 72 on combat report and several had AV's in the 100's). It is wooded terrain and I'm sure his fort value is at least 4 but I'll find out soon. I'm not sure what will happen now. It is possible that I will be able to drive him out quickly but I wouldn't bet on it. The key is to at least attack enough to reduce his fortifications. That way if he rienforces and it turns into a long battle of bombardments it will be fought on terms favorable to Japan. If he does not send rienforcements the city will surely fall eventually. I'm not sure if he will though as his supply situation may not alllow a long battle of attrition in this area.

At Ichang his forces have stopped my counter-offensive and my troops are pulling back in good order. He has something like 9 corps there now and more are moving toward the city from the north. My four divisions are just not enough. The question now is will he advance again toward Hsinyang.

I bombed Kumming with two Sally groups and destroyed 53 resourse pts!! This is irrepairable damage as China just does not have the supply to regenerate industry. I accidentally left one of the bomber groups on city attack and two turns later it launched a manpowere attack and now there are 296 FIRES in the city. I have no idea what this does.

Dudes aircraft have been silent. He has mostly used his bombers for recon and in early January started using them in very limited ground attacks. But for the last week he seems to have pulled everything back.

The next week will be very interesting.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/28/42


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Ground combat at Wuchow

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 54518 troops, 485 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 188399 troops, 2079 guns, 180 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
56 casualties reported

[WiTP_Dude]

It appears reinforcements arrived at Ichang just in time. The city was very close to falling but should hold now for a while. The action has shifted to Wuchow now and the Chinese are now hurrying to shift units to this city.

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/29/42

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Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
Ki-21 Sally x 35
Ki-15 Babs x 5

No Japanese losses

Resources hits 10--This number always seeems to be low. Kumming has now lost 83 resourse pts. At least when I retarget the city thats what is listed as destroyed.

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet


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Day Air attack on 83rd Chinese Corps, at 42,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 30
Ki-51 Sonia x 24

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 5 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet--AVG comes out to fight!!--2 nates and 1 p-40 are lost but the bombing attack is rendered ineffective.
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Ground combat at Wuchow

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 164982 troops, 2112 guns, 37 vehicles

Defending force 65658 troops, 490 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
300 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Witp_Dude does not counterbombard. Is he retreating??


My troops have broken contact at Ichang. The Chinese are on the march near Honan. It appears that Dude is contemplating a counterattack in the north.

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/30/42
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Ground combat at Wuchow

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 182488 troops, 2108 guns, 180 vehicles

Defending force 65547 troops, 498 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)


Japanese ground losses:
4424 casualties reported---No quick victory here. It looks like a long fight ahead
Guns lost 138
Vehicles lost 4

Allied ground losses:
1131 casualties reported
Guns lost 39


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Ground combat at 46,38

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24726 troops, 398 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 5515 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 350 to 1



Allied ground losses:
9812 casualties reported--The second of two units that were cut off in the initial offensive is destroyed. Now there are no Chinese behind my lines and I have a continuous front.
Guns lost 18


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Ground combat at Wuchow

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 53267 troops, 428 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 183168 troops, 1916 guns, 168 vehicles



A significant force (6 units?? with 4 more enroute?) enter's Honan. Also 2 units appear opposite Yenan. The situation is quite unnerving as my recons show massive numbers of Chinese everywhere. I know that their supply state must be dreadful and it may not be possible for them to sustain an offensive but I have no way of knowing for sure.

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/31/42

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Ground combat at Wuchow

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 159314 troops, 1919 guns, 26 vehicles

Defending force 63599 troops, 448 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
125 casualties reported

My disrupted forces get off a weak bombardment.
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Ground combat at Homan

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 56808 troops, 648 guns, 12 vehicles

Defending force 47130 troops, 385 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
510 casualties reported

6 Chinese corps against 3 of my divisions.
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Ground combat at Wuchow

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 53311 troops, 438 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 183668 troops, 1919 guns, 168 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
24 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


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Ground combat at Homan

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 28849 troops, 260 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 66238 troops, 660 guns, 12 vehicles



The Chinese also have some more units enroute to Yenen other then the two units already sighted. I have no idea how many since I picked it up selecting targets for recon.
I will be getting two new divisions in about 10 days which should help tremendously. I will also be converting my first russia command division over to china command soon. I could do it now but that would leave me with about 8050 assault points in russia which is cutting it a little too close. I'll wait until I have 8100 or so.

[mogami]

Hi, When alloting PP for use in converting units to China Command how many PP do you reserve for the rest of the war? Is China getting all the PP?

[moses]

We really havn't talked about it but it is a valid point. The constraint is not PP's however it is Assault pts in russia that have to be kept above 8000. I'll check next turn to see how many pp's there are as I definatly don't want to do anything that cannot be reasonable replicated in a full game.

When WITP_Dude and I originally set up the game I think it was assumed that some of the Russian units would eventually be transfered. Were he to object I would just keep them where they are. I do not transfer anything from other commands to either russia or China except for one small snlf which I send to south coast of china at start to meet garrison requirements. Also the southern area division which is in China at the start took Hong Kong and just stays in that city. It does nothing other than suck up supply and does not participate in the battle in any way..

Of course by the rules of the game PP's are not needed at all. I could just keep the units in the Kwantang army and fight them in China. No need for that kind of foolishness however.

Anyway I'll post PP's avail with next turn and nothing will be transfered without full knowledge of both players.

[mogami]

Hi, As soon as a means is discovered that allows units in Korea/Manchuria to move in their zone but prevents them from entering China it will be installed. Untill then you have to trust me when I tell you that to maintain the designers intent no unit not assigned to SAA should ever be allowed into an area controlled by another HQ without first paying the PP and transfering to the HQ in control of the area you are moving into

The are still a few OB issues that also cause problems. There is a HQ at Peking known as "North China Army" and then at Canton exists "China Army" however no units are assigned to North Army. The units in and around Peking should be assigned to North Army.

Now why is this important? Well against a human we can debate it to death but against the AI it is important because in these games the human should always keep units within the range of their assigned HQ (except SAA where the Army HQ are used as well)

It is the chain of commands fault. In order to excute combat we should install code that requires units to be in range of their HQ (where these orders orignate)
Proper unit assignment would be for units to report to Army HQ not the higher HQ

Example would be Imperial Guards Divsion it begins assigned to Southern Area Army but was really part of 25th Army which in turn reported to SAA.

In Order for the IG div to be used in combat it should be required to be in rnage of 25th Army. (otherwise it should be only allowed 2 options. Move or Sit)

Just imposing a real chain of command we would eliminate many problems. The simple COC was installed to prevent problems and make it easy to understand but it seems to me to be causing more then it cures.

I'd require a HQ be in range of it's next higher HQ and that units be in range of these "front line" HQ to engage in combat.

There would of course always be the option to assign a unit to "Independant" status and this would allow the unit complete freedom. However it would also mean it would not draw replacements.


I'm drifting a bit here. The root of the problem is the loosly imposed command structure. And the problem of how to allow a unit movement but prevent it from moving from one connected hex to another. (across border between China and manchuria) That restriction was real in the Japanese Army during WWII but it does not exist for the Japanese player in WITP unless he disiplines himself.

[WiTP_Dude]

Yes, it was agreed upon at the start that Kwantung units can be moved to China but the Japanese needed to be sure they didn't trigger the 8000 limit. As for the rest, nothing more can be written that will change things.

[moses]

In reply to Mogami:

Understand your concern and we are trying not to be gamey. So far I think all units are in areas covered by the HQ's. Right now I have 3026 PP's and Manchukuo garrison of 8485 so it is possible to transfer one division. This would be about all that could be transfered for some time. At least until Kwangtang area rienforcements arrive. I probably won't even transfer that unit if it only serves to cast doubt on the game results. Its only one division and doesn't much matter.

1 Feb 42: Mutual bombardments continue in both wuchow and Homan with Japan causing the greater losses. The 5 Chinese units near Yenan do not appear to be very strong and this may just be a demonstration.

[mogami]

Hi, The actual practice of the Japanese during the war was to draw on Korea and Manchuria for reinforcements.
However there was a provisio involved.
When the Japanese required a trained unit and had none they would withdraw one from Korea/Manchuria and replace it with a new (untrained) unit. So at the end the Army there was somewhat larger then at the start but it surrendered in less then 10 days of fighting with the Soviets.

I withdraw formations from there myself. I pay PP first and I send a replacement unit.
I'd much rather send the untrained troops there then try to fight in New Guinea with raw troops.

[moses]

2-3 Feb 42:

Two more days of bombardment at Honan and Wuchow but the Chinese are pulling back from Honan. I guess he Dude does not believe he can defeat three divisions. At Yenen a corps has finally entered the city and there will be a few days of fighting there I think. His troops at Ichang remain in place.

Around Wuchow the Chinese attempted to send some divisions down the rail line to try and encircle my troops in the city. One division reached the hex between Wuchow and Canton but was promptly driven back. Two other units are still on the rail line with similar intent.

3 units have crossed the river near Changsa. WITP_DUDE keeps probing my lines looking for that weak spot.

[WiTP_Dude]

Unfortunately the Chinese were outnumbered by those three divisions at Honan (as displayed in the combat report) let alone taking in quality and experience factors.

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/04/42--A really tough turn for the Chinese.

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Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-21 Sally x 36
Ki-15 Babs x 5

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed--actual 2 zeros

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 17 destroyed, 1 damaged--actual 7 P-40E's

Resources hits 21--I have now destroyed 131 resourse centers at very little cost. It begins to look like it will take the whole AVG in order to defend Kumming. But then what happens to his other resourse locations. I can't remember the last time I saw an I-15 or 16.
Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet


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Ground combat at 46,36--6 Chinese Corps cross the river near Changsa and arrive in terrible shape. One Corps has an assault value of 1!!. One Japanese division and 2 Brigades drive them back across the river. Dude has now probed all routes into my position and unless the Yenen force is larger than what I see he has not found a weakness. As far as I can tell the only significant offensive force he has left is at Ichang.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 39058 troops, 577 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 34299 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 35 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
226 casualties reported
Guns lost 12

Allied ground losses:
222 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

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Ground combat at Wuchow--Here's a neat trick. Instead of attacking with everyone I put everything on bombardment except my armor and engineers. I reduce the fortification without the mass disruption and casualties. All the disruption goes to the attacking units but casualties still seem to be distributed evenly across the force. So my engineers are not decimated as I had feared might result from my experiment.
Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 178208 troops, 1941 guns, 169 vehicles

Defending force 79777 troops, 595 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)


Japanese ground losses:
1271 casualties reported
Guns lost 43
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
1291 casualties reported
Guns lost 56


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Ground combat at Homan--Someone has to be the rear guard. In this case the last division gets spanked on its way out.
Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 60083 troops, 669 guns, 12 vehicles

Defending force 7105 troops, 62 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 486 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
41 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
1126 casualties reported
Guns lost 26


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

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Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 24269 troops, 354 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 8776 troops, 67 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
27 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


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Ground combat at Yenen

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8739 troops, 65 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 26841 troops, 398 guns, 0 vehicles