How can you guys stand PBEM?

[madflava13]

bordric -
You should go read some of the AARs that are going on. I don't think PBEM is boring at all - I think playing the AI when I know I can beat it time and time again is, but that's just me.

[bordric]

Yeah I know Mad, looks like you guys are having hell of fun time. Guess I will have to jump in soon. Prolly just get spanked though someone invade L.A., or San Fran or something in1942... [:D]

[e8flyer]

I'll have to agree with the other folks in this forum. PBEM rules! I am still trying to bring myself back to playing against the AI. Unfortunately my PBEM buddy, has had to take some time off for family issues......obviously does not have his priorites straight [:D], but I am looking forward to starting our game again. Also I am trying to think of a way that we can continue playing when I ship backout to the desert again. Stupid deployed email has size restriction. There is nothing like just getting a turn, and asking the question the president asks during any military crisis, "where are the carriers?"

ORIGINAL: madflava13

bordric -
You should go read some of the AARs that are going on. I don't think PBEM is boring at all - I think playing the AI when I know I can beat it time and time again is, but that's just me.

[pasternakski]

Let's clear the decks once and for all on PBEM. Yes, as things stand, it's the only way to get a decent game out of WitP.

The problem is that computer wargaming stands on a different basis. The original idea was that board wargamers could not find playing partners, so the computer ought to stand in and be an effective opponent.

The computer never lived up to the task. Even though almost all early computer wargames (particularly Grigsby's) were intended for human vs. computer play, the AI was never anything to write home about. Just about all "solutions" centered around giving the computer player certain advantages (combat, materiel, and so on). Few designers thought to advance AI design in accordance with the solitaire gaming precept built into the computer gaming market.

All I can say is that the vast majority of gamers still play, and prefer, solitaire. If our hobby is to survive in any meaningful sense and compete successfully against RTS and first-person shooters, someone has to step up and figure out how to design AIs that satisfy the majority of game buyers.

It's that simple. Adapt or die. PBEM will never support gaming to the degree that it will be profitable enough to expand the consumer base.

[bordric]

That is pretty much my point Pasternakski, you just said it better. [;)]


I bought the game for 1 vs Ai, if I ever play PBEM it will only be a side dish to what I thought I was getting. I am not terribly unhappy yet but I was just surprised by all of the post like this; "Well forget it you need to play another Player, AI sucks."...

I also do not understand why with all the technology a decent AI could not be made, of course I do not expect perfection, just a little this side of it. I don't know seems AI has not changed much in the last years unlike all the other things in gaming.

[siRkid]

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there. And we have made improvments to the AI, read the patch notes. No one has sent me any saves showing the AI doing something stupid over and over again. Sure it will never be as good as a human but to call it broke it totally unfair.

[bordric]

I apologize Kid I should not have said broke, I was just being factious in that post with dry sarcasm towards the PBEM guys. I have actually not played all the way through and do not expect I will for many months from now. In truth I was just jabbing them in the ribs for all the post "Play another Player". [:D]

So far I am having fun, of course like Mogami said if you want and know the AI weakness you can use it, I have not played the game for long but I can already figure out how to do that. Which also made sense when he said to play the game and not worry about hurry to win. I agree with that.

Personally I enjoy historical runs, I like to push up through the South Pacific for a While and meet up at the Mariana's with the Central Pacific. I am capable of a few rules for myself to keep from breaking the AI. Have done for a long time I will do it again.

Again this is a great game and I was not meaning debase anyone's hard work.
I can see now reading back that is what it looks like but honestly I was just picking on the PBEM guys. But Pasternaski still has a very point.

[Thayne]

Ah, this debate raises its ugly head again.

As I have said in the past, different people have different likes, and let each person play the type of game they like. I object when PBEM players denigrate those of us who prefer to play against the AI, and I see no reason to denigrate those who play PBEM. Each is looking for different things in a game, and it is good that each can find something that they like here in WiTP.

I have no problem understanding the PBEM gamer willing to devote several years to a good game. I could certainly play my game a heck of a lot faster if I did not take my time to write the THAYNE NEWS CAMPAIGN REPORTS. I am willing to sacrifice speed for something that I enjoy, and a PBEM gamer likely has similar interests.

Personally, I would much appreciate it if the AI would have the cleverness to lay traps and create and execute complex strategies. These are traits that you are only going to find in a human player. Unfortunately, the same ability in a human that allows them to do these things, also allows them to see weaknesses in the rules (or the program) and to exploit those as well, which (for me) robs the game of a certain amount of enjoyment.

It is good that both types of players can find interest in WiTP.

Thayne

[rhondabrwn]

The big factor intimidating me from doing PBEM is that it locks you into a game partnership for the length of the game, kinda like adopitng a puppy. Sure, it's lots of fun at first, but you are making a huge committment of time and effort to the puppy (or the game). It scares me to think that I just do not have the time or energy to be locked into feeling obligated to send daily turns... and I would feel so bad if I had to let someone down by abandoning a game in progress.

At least the AI is totally insensitive if I save a game and then never come back to it again (and I have plenty of partial games out there).

I guess I'm one of those people who never master a game sufficiently to even know that there are problems with the AI [:D]

Actually, if I knew there was some gamey strategy to outfox the AI, I wouldn't use it. If you are going to deliverately take advantage of something like that, why play at all?

I never understood my boys downloading cheat codes to give them unlimited funds in Sim City and invulnerability in fighting games and so forth. To my mind, it removed all purpose from the game and reduced any victory to inconsequence.

So, if there are novices out there who would settle for a guarantee of one turn a month (maybe more, of course, but no promises), I might be their girl.

[Farfarer61]

Excellent piece Mogami. I played Pacwar for several years - get this- via satellite connection and download, so the turns had to be zipped less than 35KB. I actually prevailed on the IT guys to get their limit raised from 30K per attachment, to 35K.

Yes, it was the operational level level campaigns within the greater strategic context that counted. I think no one wants to play from others' mistakes ( yeah - post Midway - I'll take over now hehe).

Overall, your opponent may become aware of your strategy e.g. get B17/24/29 bases in range of the heartland and start the bombing, or something else.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Kid

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there.

Baloney. The excuse has been given over and over and over again here that "boo hoo, the AI can't never be as good as a human." Play Galactic Civilizations once if you want to see how good AI currently is, and talk to those people about how to improve it. Frank Hunter is a good source, too, as you should already know.

Don't come to the AI's defense with regard to what has been miserably done in WitP. We're not stupid. We all know how bad it sucks.

[Knavey]

Is there anyone in this forum, that has started a PBEM game and decided that PBEM was not as good as playing the AI?

I highly doubt you could find a handful if any!

You guys that are hesitant to start a PBEM game, you have NO idea what a blast you are missing out on.

I am one of ltfighters opponents in a 4 way free for all. Feinder and I are playing ltfighter and kbullard, and the action is much more intense than any AI game I have started...and I started quite a few of them. Just like one poster said and then he abandoned them. Trust me...you get to know your troops a lot closer in PBEM games. The turns tend to be done with a bit more care (since I know kb or lt will gloat if they hammer me because of a mistake and I don't want to let Feinder down by doing something stupid with my theaters) and every mistake you make is just an opportunity for the opponent to exploit it. When I make mistakes with the AI, I just shrug it off because I know it can only capitalize on it so far.

With a human opponent, if I make the wrong decision, you better believe the water will come pouring through the holes in your ships and it will be much more difficult to recover from it.

My advice...give PBEM a try...just one game. You guys that swear by the AI...try a few weeks worth of turns against a human. After that, I will bet you will pick up a second game or two just to keep your modem busy sending the turns back and forth.

[denisonh]

It is hard to simply reload a save or restart against a human opponent....

How many guys who have had PBEM games where the opponent simply disappeared after losing an engagement?

I had a number of UV PBEMs where opponents "bailed".

There are people who cannot deal with failing and those who lack the patinece to PBEM. AI play is much better suited for them.

Of course, AI for a complex game of this depth and detail is difficult. Wamnting it is fine, but being able to script and program something with this much complexity to be competent against all opponents and ploys is beyond reason. Galatic civilizations is a good example, but the comparison fails when the level of complexity is compared.

The "branches and sequels" created by the myriad of choices, options, capabilites, unit varieties, etc... gets is simply HUGE in WitP compared to other games. It is on par with DoD sims which make no attempt to have any "comprehensive" AI due to this complexity.

Put the requirements for the AI withe the level of complexity out for bid for a contract, and see what you get.

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Is there anyone in this forum, that has started a PBEM game and decided that PBEM was not as good as playing the AI?

I highly doubt you could find a handful if any!

You guys that are hesitant to start a PBEM game, you have NO idea what a blast you are missing out on.

I am one of ltfighters opponents in a 4 way free for all. Feinder and I are playing ltfighter and kbullard, and the action is much more intense than any AI game I have started...and I started quite a few of them. Just like one poster said and then he abandoned them. Trust me...you get to know your troops a lot closer in PBEM games. The turns tend to be done with a bit more care (since I know kb or lt will gloat if they hammer me because of a mistake and I don't want to let Feinder down by doing something stupid with my theaters) and every mistake you make is just an opportunity for the opponent to exploit it. When I make mistakes with the AI, I just shrug it off because I know it can only capitalize on it so far.

With a human opponent, if I make the wrong decision, you better believe the water will come pouring through the holes in your ships and it will be much more difficult to recover from it.

My advice...give PBEM a try...just one game. You guys that swear by the AI...try a few weeks worth of turns against a human. After that, I will bet you will pick up a second game or two just to keep your modem busy sending the turns back and forth.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: bordric

Yeah I know Mad, looks like you guys are having hell of fun time. Guess I will have to jump in soon. Prolly just get spanked though someone invade L.A., or San Fran or something in1942... [:D]

You know, there is an AAR out there about this .... (And if you read it, you will understand why everyone cringes when they hear the words, "The Banana has a plan!". [:D])

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

The "branches and sequels" created by the myriad of choices, options, capabilites, unit varieties, etc... gets is simply HUGE in WitP compared to other games. It is on par with DoD sims which make no attempt to have any "comprehensive" AI due to this complexity.

Put the requirements for the AI withe the level of complexity out for bid for a contract, and see what you get.

There is NO AI out there that is in the gaming community that can compete with a human. Can't think of any game where AI is a challange. That is one reason that the MMOGs are as massive as they are. You simply cannot program the computer to be as rational or as irrational as the human player can be. To win against the AI, it is simply a matter of restarting the save, and trying from a different angle of attack until you find the weakness in the AI and exploiting it.

Invent an AI that functions like a human, and you will be rich.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Kid

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there. And we have made improvments to the AI, read the patch notes. No one has sent me any saves showing the AI doing something stupid over and over again. Sure it will never be as good as a human but to call it broke it totally unfair.

KID Does this mean that you have finally taught the AI not to squander it's assets
as fast as it recieves them? If not, it is still at least "cracked" if not broken. But I
agree that as long as the player is willing to play sensibly it will do an acceptable
job of providing competition so he can learn, practice, and try different things. And
sometimes just relax and play. And for a game with this degree of complexity that's
a pretty fair accomplishment. Chess is to WITP as a bicycle is to a BMW..., and only
recently have specialized chess computers and software caught up to the master level.
Too bad someone couldn't have gotten IBM to put all that money and talent into a real
wargame. One where every piece can move at once on BOTH sides in a three dimen-
tional playing arena.

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: bordric

I keep hearing all this talk about pbem but I could not imagine playing like that. Turns are painful enough against the AI, 1 or 2 turns a day would take years to finish one of the long scenario's.

Do you just play the small scenario's ?

I have to admit I wasn't sure about the response. But since I started PBEM the increase in game excitment with a REAL challenge is worth any wait.

[viking42]

I'd love to play a PBEM,
But playing against the AI takes me about all the free time i have. and at an average of 5 turns a day, i will need a year to finish a game.
If i would play a PBEM, i will not be able to play more than a turn a day average, this will take about five years to finish!!

[kayjay]

Northern Va ? Where ? Saw you commnet about DoD sims - thats what I do all day:)

Kevin

[denisonh]

I am the Manpower Management Officer for the Army Reserve in Crystal City (but spend a fair amount of time in "the Building")

Spent some time while at the Naval Postgraduate School doing some work with some of the current DoD wargaming applications.

ORIGINAL: kkelley

Northern Va ? Where ? Saw you commnet about DoD sims - thats what I do all day:)

Kevin