March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

[mogami]

Hi, You don't have to agree with anything and you are free to whine or spout your genius all you want.
What you won't do any more is come in here and target me or my intentions.
This forum is to discuss WITP and post problems and questions and opinions.

Several things
A. I am not a professional software engineer.
B. It is not my personal job to fix bugs. I collect bug reports and pass them along but up till now there has been nothing usable to pass along. No one knows how to create the bug and no one can catch the critter in a save. I do the only thing I can, I run lots of turns. I run these turns with other people. Different people. I'm running turns with other OS and Computers and these other people and myself in several hundred turns have not yet seen the bug. What else I can do eludes me. Your suggestion that I somehow find the bug while not running turns appears to be to finding fault because that is why you came here in the first place. I don't see how you can believe that your posts forward progress to solving bugs.
I don't debate matters of opinion such as aircraft ratings or port sizes. I explain why the number used was was and point out that everyone is free to alter these numbers and an editor comes with the game so there is no reason to complain about OB or ratings.

People do have the right to expect that where the program fails to execute as designed it will be fixed.

Where the program was not designed in a manner that a person feels was the best but it executes as designed they should make their pointless comment one time in one thread and then let it alone.

The only reason I post in these forums is to help people get satisfaction from the game.
There are some people I can't help. Sorry. Move out of the way and let me help those that I can.
The next person who plays whack on Mog is going to go stand in the corner. I don't claim to be the brightest light in the sky but I can tell a hawk from a handsaw (when the wind is right) Don't worry about posting valid problems questions suggestions. But please refrain from suggesting your being ignored or no one is trying. What good does Mike Wood do by posting before he can fix a problem? When a problem is fixed it appears in a patch.

[bstarr]

I wonder if mods have anything to do with the leader bug. my game has the bug bigtime and it's a mod game. I've noticed in the database "locations" the "0" leader means "none" whereas "0" leader usually means a "random" leader in other areas. Perhaps there are locations that need leaders which don't have them, and the computer's going batty trying to find them one. Is anyone using 1.4 without mods still seeing the leader bug?

just an idea.

[mogami]

Hi, Is the leader bug only found in modified scenarios? I'm not playing any modified scenarios.

[pad152]

This is the second time you have offered this. Seems like the way to go, internally or employing forum help like your offer. What's the problem?

Ron

I haven't heard anything from Matrix, my guess is everybody is off enjoying the holidays.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

I wonder if mods have anything to do with the leader bug. my game has the bug bigtime and it's a mod game. I've noticed in the database "locations" the "0" leader means "none" whereas "0" leader usually means a "random" leader in other areas. Perhaps there are locations that need leaders which don't have them, and the computer's going batty trying to find them one. Is anyone using 1.4 without mods still seeing the leader bug?

just an idea.

Nope. They can exasperate the bug (I did by "inserting"a new leader in the leader datafile and it displaced the lot of them) but are not the cause. A stock scenario can see the bug occur before players even issue orders.

[mogami]

Hi, I'm wondering if the Airgroup not arriving bug is a mod thing as well.

OK never mind Ron has the leader bug in a normal scenario.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Is the leader bug only found in modified scenarios? I'm not playing any modified scenarios.

Are you saying you have not seen this bug in any of your games? This seems impossible![X(] I have had it occur since day 1 of receiving the first playable Alpha build.

[bstarr]

Mog,
do you think it would be possible to have a "temporary fix" to the bug? For instance, give the players the ability to look up leaders out of a list and "cheat" them back into the game. I know this would give some untrusting PBEMers a fit, but it could be an option that would smooth the problem until a more permanent fix is located.
bs

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I'm wondering if the Airgroup not arriving bug is a mod thing as well.

OK never mind Ron has the leader bug in a normal scenario.

I think the airgroup problem is a database input error problem. Being official does not make them error free...just look at some of the scenarios other than the 15 camp. These got a lot less test exposure so they had more errors present when game released.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Is the leader bug only found in modified scenarios? I'm not playing any modified scenarios.

Are you saying you have not seen this bug in any of your games? This seems impossible![X(] I have had it occur since day 1 of receiving the first playable Alpha build.

Hi, So here I am catching flak for something I have never seen when you have been seeing it since you were a tester and you were a tester for how long and never caught the beast?
Can we start by asking your system data so that we can see if machine or other cause is involved (like particular TSR you have running while playing. I run with nothing but Explorer and my system tray active.
But I also have ran with my ISP connected and this web page open and no problems.

Didn't we send turns to each other?

[Ron Saueracker]

Yep, saw instances since the beginning because I am very familiar with USN sub commanders. Problem with that is there were so many holes in the dbase that it did not strike me as a bug but as a dbase issue. Mentioned it a few times early on in passing but got no answer that is memorable. Also, constantly having to restart minimized the beast, as it seems to spread at ever increasing rates as time goes on (ship sinkings, death, player induced change)thereby effectively keeping this puppy in the dark, and since the game was released too early in my opinion (guess every one knows my opinion now,eh?[X(][:D]) the public were able to see it grow as their games had no restart requirements placed on them like we were hamstrung.

I gave all the details of my system when the problem was recurring with the purchasing public. WIN 98 SE is my OS. I run game generally with my firewall on (McAfee) since I have cable, but that's about it. All the turns are WinZipped. We started a PBEM test but I had a HA and was gone for some months. Then I had to finish the Allied ship dbase in record time as the final cutoff was a couple weeks away. Basically never got passed the first turn in our game...unfortunate. We'll have to play as I hear you are like the Jap master.

[mapr]

[ZOOMIE1980]


As far as know ( and I do not know), Mogami's or Frag's current status in Witp Forums&testing&etc is not likely to make them rich... And do not include any obligations on their part. But still both have posted quite many wery useful posts here. etc. etc. Their posts have often been much more manual to me, than game manual itself. Thanks to both. [&o]

I allso have not withnessed any confirmed bugs with official scenarios, atleast not yet. I do not count auto convoys as bug on US side. It is far beyond that... With Tanaka's 1.3 after updating to 1.4, my combat replays have made game to crash for some times, but luckily after succesfull creation of replays.

As much as everyone would like those random bugs fixed, it really is hard to fix a bug if it is random and expecially if it can't reproduced. It is quite common to ask bug descriptions from customers. Without proper bug description all they can do is to debug and check code for errors in memory management and for logical errors. Both tasks are pretty hard to do if one has to work without reproducable bug.

And who gives a **** about Witp, when

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I ceased to be friendly with Mogami and Frag a LLOOONNGGG time ago. I don't intend to start now.

[michaelm75au]

If you really want to complain about things, just stop for a moment and think about the terrible time those affected by the tidal wave are having.

I work in IT for a major retailer in Australia for many years, and spend much of my time coding and testing programs.
Theses programs are tested by myself and/or another member of my group, then given to business testers to do their thing and finally released to the users.
Even after all this, I have had a user ring up the next day complaining that the program always crashes. I get the user to step through the process with me ( while running my own copy of the program and performing the same steps). Suddenly, they tell me if has crashed. Of course mine is still working. At this point, I query them as to exactly what did they do.
The answer is often "nothing...well except for pressing the F1 key".
Me: What F1 key? You'r not suppose to press the F1 key. Why did you do that?
User: Oh. I always press F1 when I want help.
Of course, this particular program was not a windows app and did not know anything about function keys. And was resolved as a simple keyboard mapping issue.
Sometimes, the problem is not so easy to locate. And I need to get down into core/crash dumps trying to locate the problem. But it is always better to have a known method that causes the problem. Once fixed, you can use this method to verify the fix.

The point is that often you need to go back to the user and get them to give you as much information about the problem as possible. Otherwise, it is very hard to work out where to begin.
In WITP case, the developers are asking for a repeatable save file if you experience the problem. Personally, I think a comparision between a save file immediately before and after the problem occurs would show any corruption/mis-alignment within the leader/ship/location arrays, and possibly indicate how to further bullet proof this code.

Regardless of what we think is wrong with the code, the only person who can find the problem is the programmer. And he requires repeatable save files in order to pin down the possiblities.

Michael
OK I am ready to be shot/hosed/sworn at/etc.[:'(]

[FirstPappy]

and since the game was released too early in my opinion (guess every one knows my opinion now,eh? ) the public were able to see it grow as their games had no restart requirements placed on them like we were hamstrung.

Ron,
I feel your pain. I was a beta tester for Paradox on HOI #1. Talk about beta opinions that they released it to early. Almost every beta to a man did not want to see it released. Neither did Paradox but I think they were bound by Strategy First contract to get it out by Xmas. All the betas got together on the beta board and figured out what we would say to the public. What we came up with was to blame everything on one beta. The name we used for this beta was the name of that British officer whose body the English had used to wash up on South Atlantic shore with phony plans for the invasion. That kept our spirits up for awhile.

BTW, I've experienced the leader bug many times prior to 1.4. I haven't played the game since the patch came out so I can't comment.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

]We'll have to play as I hear you are like the Jap master.

Hi, No I have drawn the Japanese in a lot of games but consider myself rather weak in employing them. What I consider to be my real strength is in playing the Allies from wars start to mid 1943 (after that a team of monkeys can run the Allies)
In UV I played the Allied side in the terrible scenario over 20 times. I only lost 2 of them. I only played Japan (in non testing games) 2 or 3 times. I completed at least 15 full scenarios.

My screen name was choosen in when I first went online (Years before UV or WITP) I once had a cat I named Mogami and I used his name because it was easy for me to remember when I had to sign on.

I posted a story about him (well based on him) here a year or two ago.

[pasternakski]

A little additional info on the leader bug that may or may not be helpful.

I do not play modded scenarios (only scenario 15 so far). I do not see the bug when playing the Japanese side. On the Allied side, after v. 1.40, there are two circumstances that seem to trigger it more often than others: having a transport TF's flaship sunk and parking a submarine on top of a Japanese homelands base. Every once in awhile, an ensign or second lieutenant Japanese officer whose name appears in the database list as a pilot pops up as commander of a minor ship and is said in the display to be best suited to command a carrier (or a carrier task force if he appears in the TF display as its leader). I also see Japanese infantry majors taking over cargo ships occasionally. These are different because, when you go to replace them, you get a short list of other Japanese majors to choose from. The WO 0/0 thing is entirely different and is fixable using Mike Wood's solution that turns them into "staff officers." Before, you couldn't get rid of them at all.

I have tried to get repeatable saves, but it wouldn't do any good, because I have yet to start a game fresh under v. 1.40. I had four games going under 1.30, two PBEM and two AI, one of each on each side, and continued them under 1.40. My Allied opponent got disgusted with the leader bug and quit. I am trying to hang in there in my other game, but I am getting rather frustrated, as well, although Mike's work has improved the situation somewhat. The other two games I have decided to sh1tcan and start over fresh under 1.40 in hope that either the bug won't be there anymore or I'll be able to come up with a repeatable save.

Mog, you and I have been around here a long, long time. You know that my comments and efforts have been just about entirely supportive. Please don't take what some have said (well, except for Zoomie) personally or as something intended to frustrate you. This is the worst problem that has cropped up in connection with the UV/WitP engine (I do not agree with those who see it as trivial). It demonstrates certain faults deep within the engine (and I don't need another lecture from whomever it was about the difference between this or that) that make the player feel as though the whole thing is a cobbled-together piece of junk.

I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that it really reduces your respect for the game design and the amount of pleasure you get from playing it.

So, on we go. I just hope that someday I'll be able to start a game of WitP with a decent hope of being able to finish it.

[mogami]

Hi, Pasternakski I have never resented anything you have ever posted. And I don't resent people who post problems and express frustration about them. I don't think anyone needs to suggest that they are not being fixed because I am ignoring them.
I understand it can ruin the experiance when the game screws up. I am trying to isolate a few of the whens,wheres and whys of certain bugs.
A bug that appears for everyone when they hit this or that key in this menu is easy to fix. I don't think there are any of these left to be addressed.
A bug that only attacks a portion of the players and cannot be defined by "hit this key in this menu" and that cannot be caught in repeatable save is much harder.
I'm not suggesting that finding it is the job of the players who it effects. I'm just letting them know what we need to fix it. I can't catch what I can't duplicate. The only way I know to proceed on a personal level is to run as many turns as I can.
Because version changes can introduce a new bug that is only the result of mixing an older version with the new only bugs produced by the most current version can be tracked. It very well might be that there are "one of a kind" bugs out there that exist only because a player running a certain processer, with a certain video card, and certain TSR upgraded one version to another and spawned a bug. A bug no one else will ever encounter.
I know from past experiance that some bugs come into being after I have ran many turns and my machines memory becomes tied up. I discovered I had far fewer bugs created and fewer crash/lockups after I began running WITP without any other program running in the background.

Currently I have a rather curious situation on my machine.

If I turn on my computer and do nothing, within 3 or 4 minutes it locks up.
If I turn on my computer and go online within 3 or 4 minutes my machine locks up.
If however I run WITP (or any program) my machine does not lock up.
In order to post this message I have WITP running in the background (doing my morning PBEM turns)
If I exited WITP and tried to remain here and post my machine would lock up.
I've tried everything I know to fix this but I don't understand where to begin.

(It's like my machine is saying "play WITP or else")

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Currently I have a rather curious situation on my machine.

If I turn on my computer and do nothing, within 3 or 4 minutes it locks up.
If I turn on my computer and go online within 3 or 4 minutes my machine locks up.
If however I run WITP (or any program) my machine does not lock up.
In order to post this message I have WITP running in the background (doing my morning PBEM turns)
If I exited WITP and tried to remain here and post my machine would lock up.
I've tried everything I know to fix this but I doubt understand where to begin.

(It's like my machine is saying "play WITP or else")

[:D] The phrase "poetic justice" is coming to mind for some reason. [:D]

I assume you have already run virus and spyware scans? Done a recent Windows update?

[2ndACR]

Mogami,

I think you are being bit by the dreaded "msnasiacv" problem. I am also using ME and it happens to me at times. When it locks up, if you ctl/alt/del and look at the running background programs that little dude will show up as not responding.

I have yet to be able to fix that little dude. Even tried a re-install of windows after a complete re-format.

[mogami]

Hi, When it locks up I can't use the ctrl/alt/delete my keyboard is also locked up. I have to turn off my computer the hard way and restart. I've ran everything I can find to solve this bugger. I reinstalled everything (after reformatting) because of the problem that knocked me off line a while ago. Now I have this monster.